How to Turn Your Creativity Into Cash Without Selling Out

Kathryn Finney: We're joined by the incredibly talented Natalie Osborne, founder and artist behind Natalie O. Decor. Born in the historic Greenwood district of Tulsa, Oklahoma, also known as Black Wall Street, Natalie carries a legacy of innovation and resilience into every brush stroke. After earning her BFA from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, Natalie spent years teaching and exhibiting her art in New York City before taking the leap to go full-time as an artist in 2017. Since then, her vibrant, soulful work has been featured in InStyle, Harper's Bazaar, Essence, and in my personal living room and offices. So whether you're launching your first product, nurturing your creative practice, or wondering if it's time to take the leap, this episode is for you. Hi, Natalie, it's great to have you on. Natalie Osborne: Hi Catherine, I'm so great, I'm so happy to be here. Kathryn Finney: So, know, I actually own a number of your pieces and I don't even know how I first came across you, but I think what was really interesting for me is how you use a lot of abstract sort of theory into your art. And that was something I hadn't really seen a lot, particularly as someone who collects African-American art and African artists. I hadn't seen a lot of that. I hadn't really seen any of that. And so it was really drawn to the bold colors, the abstract portrayals of particularly black women in your art. And it's interesting to see how your career has grown and how you've expanded. And so you were born in Tulsa and we have that connection. My family was part of the Greenwood district, lived there during the massacre and was forced to move to Kansas. Natalie Osborne: Thank Kathryn Finney: And so how did that impact your pathway as an artist? Natalie Osborne: That greatly impacted my pathway to everything that I do. So growing up in Tulsa, in the area that I grew up in, which is Greenwood, it's always discussed, it's always celebrated, Black Wall Street, before it was burned down. It's always remembered and discussed and celebrated. you're kind of encouraged to... to add to that lineage or to kind of reflect that greatness, that excellence. And you feel like a responsibility to kind of let the people who suffered all of that injustice and have always been trying to rebuild, you kind of feel this responsibility to let them see that you're gonna do your part, you know, to kind of... to kind of reflect that excellence and say it wasn't stomped out, it still is alive. Kathryn Finney: For those who don't know, what exactly was Black Wall Street? Natalie Osborne: Black Wall Street was like the business center for black business, black entrepreneurs in a time where black people were not allowed to be businessmen and not allowed to be entrepreneurs. Black people sort of stepped away and had their own Wall Street. And it really was considered a Wall Street because they had their own bangs. They had an airport. They had airplanes. They had their own sheriff. There was business that brought in people from all over the country, brought in other Black people from all over the country, even like in like blues, like the singers. It was always said that Billie Holiday visited Black Wall Street. It was just a place where black people pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and succeeded. And then it was destroyed because there was what is called a race riot. It wasn't a race riot. It was really a, I guess you would say a retaliation for black people succeeding. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Natalie Osborne: for being able to say I did pull myself up by my own bootstraps and we're doing very well. And so, yes, an incident occurred that was, I guess you would say was similar to how the Emmett Till story is where a woman said this happened and then in comes like a lynch mob, you know, and so black, the men in Black Wall Street were like, we're gonna fight back and then the next thing you know. Black Wall Street was destroyed. Kathryn Finney: And I think it's important to highlight areas like Greenwood, like other areas around the country. Because Greenwood wasn't the only Black Wall Street. There was many pockets, particularly post the end of the Civil War, where Black folks were the original subsistence entrepreneurs, which we've talked a lot about on the path. We've a lot about this on the podcast. which are, know, subsistence entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs who have to be entrepreneurs because there are no jobs to get, or they have to be entrepreneurs because the products and services they need, they can't find anywhere else. So they have to be the ones that create it. And so as we talk about subsistence entrepreneurship and how more people are going to be going that path, not because they want to, but because of AI, and the transitioning of jobs, people are going to have to create their own jobs now. That is something in our community that we historically have been able to do. And Greenwood is a perfect example of that. And the challenge was that it was taken away from us. So we had created our sort of own ecosystems, not because we necessarily wanted to, but because we had to. no one would provide the services or products to us. And so it's really interesting that you and I are talking both having this connection to this community that had to be created. And so as you go into, you leave Greenwood, you're in Chicago, you are at the school, amazing school that's attached to the Art Institute of Chicago. And the listeners have not been to the Art Institute of Chicago. It's one of the premier art museums, institutes in the world. Amazing, amazing collection. I think it has the largest collection of French Impressionist art outside of Paris. So it's a great, great institute. And you're there as a student, were you thinking of entrepreneurship or were you really just thinking of just, I'm going to just be an artist? Natalie Osborne: was thinking of entrepreneurship when I was in high school. I went to Booker T. Washington High School and it was a high school that was around during those times, during Black Wall Street. it was, when I had a painting class there, I had a studio painting class and we created so much work, I began selling my work. So considering going to art school was about the fact that I'm I'm selling my work, let me learn more about that. Let me learn more about it so I can get better at it so that I can keep selling my work. it was going to school was so that I could be an entrepreneur, so that I could sell my art. Kathryn Finney: That was the question I was gonna ask. At what point as an artist do you start to think about money? At what point do you start to think of how am I going to sell this? Natalie Osborne: right away because as an artist, all artists will tell you this. It's one of the most expensive businesses or endeavors to pour your time into. You have to purchase the paints, the canvas, the frames, everything, and then you don't make a successful piece as soon as you sit down at at the campus, so then you'll have to go and buy another one, and you have to go and buy another campus and another. So artists know that we're spending that money just to make a piece. So it's always about paying ourselves back for what we put in, you know, so that we can keep painting. artists are thinking about money right away, as soon as they create anything that looks successful enough to profit from. It sort of goes hand in hand, yeah. Kathryn Finney: Is there like a... a formula you use for how much you charge? So for example, in retail, there's a thing called Keystone pricing, is the cost for you to the cost of goods, the cost it takes to make the thing. And then they will do two and a half times that to get what the price should be, right? That you should charge. Is there a similar formula that artists use to determine the price? Natalie Osborne: don't have a specific mathematical formula, but I do think about how much I put into it. And then I think about... you know, I have to pay myself back that and how much I need to profit. But it has always changed based on how much more I'm spending to be able to produce the work. So the bigger the pieces became and the more demand I have for the pieces, I had to have a space where I create that's very close to me instead of like leaving and going to a painting studio because I use oils and so. you sometimes would have to have a studio outside of your space. And so once I realized, okay, I need to have a space where I can have a studio that's far enough back where I'm not like contaminating the rest of the living space. So all of that factored in too. So. I guess the formula really is about paying yourself back. I don't have like a mathematical equation, but the formula is paying yourself back. You look at how much you spent that month to create the pieces and you have to put that back and then also have profit. And so I think about that. But I also did art markets. This is where I got my pricing. So everybody who's doing a startup, I think, should go into the markets if you're selling, if it's because you have items to sell. Going into a market, a seller's market, whether it's a fine arts market or an antique market, any kind of farmer's market, then you're presenting your work and you have the prices the way that they are and then you can see if people are able to purchase the work. So you give yourself a trial and the trial, I think, is in the market. Natalie Osborne: you have pieces priced lower, higher, and you see what sells and what moves. So I have a couple of different formulas, the trial and error formula and the pay yourself back for what you spent and try to profit on top of that formula. Does that make sense? Kathryn Finney: No, it totally does. In fact, it reminds me of an episode we had a couple of months ago with Lisa Price, who's the founder of Carol's Daughter, the very successful hair care online. And she talked about when she first got started and how she sold her products at a farmer's market and her church's market. And that. A gave her sort of the customer discovery, which is a process we talk about in building businesses that you got to get out and talk to your customer. You got to see what they want, what are they buying, how much they pay in, what are they attracted to, all those sort of things. And she talked about that gave her the best customer discovery. It gave her lots of information. She got information on pricing. And it's interesting that apply that to art because most people don't think of art. as a business, right? As an artist, like, I'm just creating, this is just what I do. What advice would you have for fellow artists for them to start to think that? Like going to the local art market or art festival and displaying yourself in a booth and getting the feedback. Natalie Osborne: It's really like you really have to sort of let go of the preconceived notions. As an artist, you have to let go of the preconceived notion of what an artist is and how an artist earned. Because a lot of the preconceived notions are so incorrect. So it's like I had to get rid of a lot of those thoughts. A lot of the thoughts are... Kathryn Finney: What are some of the thoughts, decided curiosity? Natalie Osborne: Art is, you're creating art as something therapeutic. It's just something that is to be revered. It's not something that you would package up and sell, like how other people would start a business and package up and sell dresses they made, or like Carol's daughter, or the products. It's like you're supposed to look at art as it's something on a different level, like on some type of revered level where you can't really package it that way. If you did, it's seen as like, I don't know, like belittling art or something. And that's like a notion that's just unrealistic and it's not true. All of the artists in the museums that we see as... prolific artists, and that's a word that artists really like to achieve. We want to achieve that word, prolific. I've been creating work all these years. I have so much work. I'm aiming to be prolific. Those artists who got that title, prolific artists, it's because they were selling their work. They were, from the time all the way back to the hieroglyphics, it has been an occupation. The museum is full of paintings. because those artists have work scattered all over the world because they had customers. People were purchasing their work. So for all the years that they were a painter, they were selling every mom. And that's how they became prolific when you add up all the years. That's how all those works got out there. So I had to kind of... look at it for what it truly was and get rid of the preconceived notions. It's like being an artist is being a business person. It is about transactions and it is about selling your work. And it just always has been. There's never been a time when it wasn't. Kathryn Finney: And so one of the interesting things with you is that you sell most of your work through Etsy versus like galleries. And a lot of artists, you know, sell through galleries. like, was that like a business decision that you decided not to go the gallery route? And how has that impacted you from like a business perspective? Natalie Osborne: Yes, well, I used to show work in galleries and I worked at a gallery, at a couple of galleries, and there are people really in your ear. There's a lot of other people than yourself. Being an entrepreneur, you really get to close out the other voices and make your own decisions on how you're going to sell. In the galleries, you really are... It's their job. It's their job to sell and to present it. You're creating the work. It's almost like you're in a step removed from, you know, your business of it. And that's fine. And it's very, very effective if you get with the right gallery. There's a lot of artists who are successful because they're with the right galleries and those galleries know what they're doing. They know how to sell. They have their client list. But I really needed to tune out voices for myself in order to have work that was true to my own thoughts and... and to have my own guidelines on what I create, who I'm creating. work to resemble or to reflect, I really had to just kind of cancel out all voices. So that really is why I sell on Etsy or on Shopify. I needed to not be a step removed from the selling process. And in the galleries, you are a step removed. I needed to be the person selling and interacting with the buyer. Kathryn Finney: And that's interesting because I think a lot of artists don't want to interact, right? Natalie Osborne: And I understand why you don't want to. It's extremely taxing. Kathryn Finney: about the business models of galleries a little bit because I don't know, I don't even know if I really understand. And I'm someone who's bought from galleries. I'm not sure if I really understand like how does a gallery make money off a piece of art? How does it make money off a piece of art? Natalie Osborne: There's like a lot of vagues. There's a lot of vagues even for the artists, you know. But let's talk about like a really successful gallery. Let me put it this way. So one would think that an artist went to a gallery and was like, would really like you to represent me. I'd really like to be one of the artists, you know, featuring in your gallery. A lot of times what happens is Kathryn Finney: Okay. Natalie Osborne: client of the gallery. an art collector who has been purchasing from that gallery says, I'm interested in purchasing work from this artist. Are you interested in representing that artist? And the reason why is because certain galleries are used to making. five, six figure transactions. So you'll have people who are purchasing and they feel more comfortable going through these institutions because they already have them. Yes, because of the size of the purchase, because the process can be very frightening because you're going to spend this money and it takes time for it. The bank is in contact with gallery. It's like it's a process that could give a buyer a lot of anxiety. Kathryn Finney: because of the size of the purchase. Natalie Osborne: And so they feel comfortable saying, well, this institution, they're known for it. And so then there's like a comfort level. And the bank and the galleries are like, you know, work together and have a relationship because there's a history of these type of sales happening from this institution. So. Natalie Osborne: those galleries can say, I'm going to take a commission, a 50 % commission. And that makes a lot of sense because they have the type of customers who are buying exclusively from their gallery. You know what I mean? And so you're like, oh great, well then I can sell these bigger, more serious pieces that I've been working on because they're priced higher. And so I can get with this gallery. And so the gallery gets 50 % of that. Kathryn Finney: So 50%, okay. Natalie Osborne: And that's a huge, that's a very big cut. And so they will price the work up to where they get the percentage that they want. And then it turns out fair in that situation because that artist wouldn't have had access to those collectors before they got in relationship with that gallery. So that works out fair. And now let's think of it from other galleries who don't have those relationships with those buyers and those banks. Or like a new gallery. These galleries are also charging a 50 % commission. And I'm not knocking galleries because galleries are very, important and we need to have galleries. But a lot of galleries don't understand why there's a 50 % commission. They just say to you, they offer a vague to you. I call it a vague. They say, well, that's just the way it is. That's just the commission. You should know that already. That's just something you should already know. And it's really... they're not quite sure on why it's a 50 % commission. And so it's kind of hard to be the artist, to be the one to say to a gallery, well, the reason why those galleries charge 50 % is because of their relationship with the financial institutions and their relationships with their clients. That's not where you are. You know what I mean? So you kind of feel like it's like an uncomfortable conversation. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Natalie Osborne: And so. Kathryn Finney: It's kind like we charge 50 % because we've always charged 50%. But there's not really a rationale behind the cost. And now that you have other spaces like Artnet and other online spaces where I'm not sure how much they take in terms of percentage. I'm assuming, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming that these sort of online galleries don't take 50 % that they take, or am I wrong? Natalie Osborne: Right. Natalie Osborne: Right. Natalie Osborne: think you're wrong. I think that 50 % is the general commission, whether it's online or in-person gallery. And of course I have to say this too, it's a suggested commission. You can always say, I can't agree to a 50 % commission. And then you go to the negotiating table. So I do have to say that. It's not set in stone. You could always say that that's not gonna work for me. and don't have to have the back and forth of why you can just say that doesn't work for me. You can offer what percentage works for you and if they like that then you can sign a contract saying you guys agree to that. Personally, I'll go ahead. Kathryn Finney: So really, please go ahead. So really as an artist, as you're looking at the galleries, it's really asking yourself, like, who's the clientele of this gallery? Right? Like, they, I mean, do they actually have clientele? Right? And so how do you find that out? Like, is it from just networking with other artists and hearing about their experiences with the gallery? Or how would you find that information? Natalie Osborne: Yes. Natalie Osborne: Great, great, great. Natalie Osborne: Yes, it's a lot about finding, you know, speaking with other gallery, I mean artists, but you can speak directly to the gallery. You can't ask them. And I wanna encourage artists to just, it's a little intimidating. Even talking about it is making me feel, you know what mean? The way you feel when you have to go and talk to a gallery. But like, you should feel very comfortable asking them. Because artists now have their own collectors. They've built their own collectors. Artists now have their own list of buyers and collectors that they've generated from handling their own sales. And so you do want to ask a gallery. You don't have to tell me exactly who your clients are, but I don't have any information about you and who your clients are in the process. And have them explain all of those things to you. Because I will say the only discussion that really comes to you is the commission discussion. It's not really a lot of discussions about these are the collectors, these are the opportunities that you would have exhibiting with us. These are this, those conversations are like, are not happening. The conversation that happens is we'd like to exhibit your work and if you agree, here's a contract and then the contract is talking about the commission, the 50 % commission. Kathryn Finney: Interesting. And so what role do marketplaces like Etsy and Shopify have, which don't take 50%, right? Whatever Etsy's transaction fees are, they're not 50%. Natalie Osborne: Right, right. Natalie Osborne: Right. So this is, it's about what stage you're at in selling your work. You, it's just like, you know what it's like? It's just like when you're making songs and selling songs, you know? So it's like, you really, can't stand out on the corner and shoe-wop anymore and expect to be discovered. It's the same thing with being an artist. You have to start selling your work and creating a buzz and about your work yourself. And then people will come and say, I see what you're doing for yourself. So Etsy and Shopify, that's for that level. And that's where I still am. I still am in that position where I am still selling and doing my own sales so that I can get enough collectors who have seen my work. Like when you and I were talking, you were like, I was in Paris when I saw your work. Kathryn Finney: I was in Paris at a friend's house. He's a big international art collector. Shout out to Patrick. And I saw your piece and was like, I have some of her pieces too. And we had a long conversation. Yeah. Natalie Osborne: that's it Natalie Osborne: Yeah, so you use platforms like Etsy and Shopify to create your own sales and to create your own relationships with these collectors. And then what happens is these collectors will see, I see, you have a piece that I have, or they'll discuss their collections. And then eventually you'll be at a position where you will get contacted by someone that's like, I have a buyer who's interested in buying your work, but they only are comfortable purchasing from my gallery. Are you interested in gallery representation? So you use Etsy and Shopify to be your own seller. And then eventually you do get to the day where when that contract for commission comes, it's from a gallery that you are saying, I feel good about this commission. I feel good about the outcome of those numbers. I can sign that contract. And then you show in galleries. And that's my advice. It doesn't mean that you have to take my advice as an artist, but that's my advice. Sell on your own until you create. that buzz and recognition of your work to where you're getting an offer from a gallery where those numbers add up for you and you like the benefits of that exchange. Kathryn Finney: And so, you know, we were talking before the podcast, just about, you know, some of the changes that are happening in the workforce and how many folks are gonna be forced to figure out how to monetize their creativity. And so at what point you were a teacher, at what point did you know that you could leave teaching and do art full time? Natalie Osborne: Well, I did a couple of markets, and it keeps coming back to the markets, the markets, the markets. I did a couple of markets and I found out that I made in one weekend what I made in two weeks, teaching. And so then I did another weekend. And so I said, hmm, how much can I make in two months of doing it every weekend? How much can I earn? And so I began to show myself how much more I was able to earn. Kathryn Finney: Hmm. Natalie Osborne: And those were reliable markets that had been around for a long, time. So I kind of rely on the fact that if this is my avenue, I can rely on the fact that I can get a booth in these markets. And so it was kind of a no-brainer. It just showed me so easily. So it wasn't like a moment of just coming to the rationale myself. It really was a show and prove method that showed me I really can stop working. Should have stopped working yesterday if I knew I could do this. So I kind of showed myself that I could do it. And once I gave myself that proof, yeah, I couldn't wait. Yes. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: you let the customer tell you, right? Like they were buying your pieces at a rate that was more than what your day job was paying, right? And I think that's what most people are trying to get to is like, how do you turn your side gig into a full-time gig? And you really have to get to a point where your side gig pays your bills. And once it's able to do that consistently, I tell people not just a one-off consistently, Natalie Osborne: Right. Natalie Osborne: Okay. Kathryn Finney: And in a way that not only this pays your bills, but maybe even gives you a little bit more than that too. Then you can start to think of like, okay, maybe we can transition. so an artist is the same as any entrepreneur. what was once your side gig now needs to be able to successfully cover your expenses. And once you can do that, then you can feel comfortable transitioning into it full time. I think some people still get really afraid, right? Natalie Osborne: Very scary. Kathryn Finney: there was a certain safety to the full-time gig. But I'm also here to tell people that, you know, let that, I mean, we swear sometimes on this podcast, let that shit go. Because we are in such a rapidly changing workforce environment right now, there is no safety. And don't mean to scare people, but there really isn't any. And so if you have this side gig that is able to pay, Natalie Osborne: Great. Natalie Osborne: Ready. Kathryn Finney: your rent, your mortgage, all the things that you need necessarily to live. We call it the exit number, the things that you need every day to thrive. It's time for you to focus on that. More than any other time in history, it's time for you to focus on that. Natalie Osborne: Yes. Right now is time. Kathryn Finney: And so, so as an artist, like, how do you think about other avenues, not just art, because you, you do decor, right? And so how did you like start to think about the other, the other sort of profits and revenue channels, whatever, you know, using entrepreneurial terms, but like other ways in which you can sort of expand and make money off of your art. How did you think about Natalie Osborne: Well, you know, I remember. watching a talk with the artist Jonathan Adler who has decor. He's a ceramics artist. His ceramics, him as a ceramic artist, what he's able to create is very beautiful, very contemporary, very, you know, it's like magnificent. He could be one of those artists that you just see their work in a gallery. He could be, you know. Jeff Koons level in a gallery, honestly, because of the contemporary pieces that he creates and that he's known for, their iconic imagery, you know, in our minds. He chose to do it in more of a retail way. And I remember watching a talk on YouTube where he was describing how he just went to Barney's one day and was like, hey, I want to sell my plates and things. And they were like, I really like these. Okay. And he didn't know what to do. So he gave them his merchandise and then like time was going by. He hadn't got paid and he called and they said, you're the guy who didn't send us an invoice. Cause he didn't know anything about that. It dawned on me. You don't have to know anything about that. It was much more of a refreshing world than all the vagues that go on in selling art. I was in the place where Natalie Osborne: I was so turned off by all the vagues when it comes to selling fine art. It's like, It offers, it leaves too much space for self doubt. Where you say, should I price it like this? Should I sell it in the market? Does that mean that I'm not a real artist? Should I show it all on social media? Does that mean that I won't be taken seriously? There's so many vagues, you know, and watching that video gave me like all this courage and energy. I was like, he didn't have to know anything. He kind of found out as he went and... Now people are living with these amazing pieces that he's created that in my mind could be in museums everywhere. And it just, it crossed a, it checked a lot of boxes for me. It checked a box of accessibility for people to have beautifully made things. You shouldn't have to just go see them at a museum or at a gallery. You should be able to have it. It checked that box. And then it checked the box of, I'm not secondary in those cells. I would be the person. orchestrating those sales and dealing, you know, setting my prices and making the connection with collectors and buyers. And that's what I want. So that's, that did it for me. It was just like my brain was activated after I saw that. And I was like, as an artist, you are your boss. You are the boss. The buck stops with you. You create the dynamics. You don't have to live in those vagues of, you know, this is what it's like to be a fine artist. You are the boss. If you want to sell fine art and sell home decor art, you can. If your work is for a gallery and it's to sell on Etsy, it can be. It's all up to you. You have to drop those preconceived notions and say, if that's what I want to do, Natalie Osborne: and I think it could be successful, then that's what I'm gonna do. You don't need anybody's permission, but you're wrong. Kathryn Finney: And so how do you actually produce the products? mean, in terms of like the home decor, it kind of like, drop shipment, but how do you actually produce the product? Natalie Osborne: Well, I do offer the original paintings. I have large scale original paintings that I offer. kind of by word of mouth or someone will message me and say, well, I saw that really large scale one and those aren't available on your shops. And so then I create an invoice for them. We kind of do a walk through kind of individual sale. But on Etsy, I create smaller original paintings that I framed and then I'll create prints. So the work is too big to scan. So what I do is I'll photograph them. I have a Canon digital camera. I photograph the work. I edit out the shine. I create a digital image that's high resolution. I then I copyright the image at copyright.gov and then I will I have a couple of different companies that I work with that provide fine art level printing. So then I'll order. Those will come to me. I back them on mounting board, the prints anyway, wrap them in something protective, a plastic covering, and then I box them and I ship them out. I looked at them the way I did vinyl. I was at a market one time and I was flipping through this guy's vinyl. He has so much vinyl to sell. And me and these other people were flipping through them. it was vinyl record. Yes. Kathryn Finney: Vinyl records or vinyl art? Yep, yep. Natalie Osborne: me and these other people were flipping through them and it was the way you could pick them up and hold them and you didn't damage anything. They were protected, it felt like it was sturdy. You could just drop it right back down. And I said, that's how you sell prints. They need to be able to be backed, mounted. They need to have that weight almost that a record has. So yeah, I kind of created a product that is art prints. Like instead of just here's an art print, I'm gonna roll it and put it in a tube. It's like, I created it in a way that it's this object, this product. that really worked for me. People really like flipping through them when I'm at a market. And that makes it easy for them to be shipped, physically shipped. So. Kathryn Finney: How did you choose, like how do you choose what market? Like as an artist, how do you choose what markets you go? Because there's a lot of markets, particularly in Chicago, during the summer there's always a market. So how do you choose? Because it could get to be pricey, right? You have to pay to be in these markets. Natalie Osborne: Yeah? If that's exactly how you choose, which one can you get in? You don't, you just have to knock that whatever little pride you got on your shoulder like, like, would this be considered good enough? Like, would this be considered a serious market or would people take me seriously if they saw me in this market? You just knock that right off your shoulder. Is that the market you can afford to be in? Then that's where you're going to go sell your art. If you can only afford to be at the farmer's market, then that's where you're going to go sell your art. Because that's where people are coming to purchase things. They are particularly there to buy something. And you don't want to always have your work on a site or in a gallery because sometimes people are just perusing. You always want to be in a market because everybody walking in there went there because they want something there. They hope they find something that they can get. So people are there to spend. It's a transaction location. So you want to have your art in a transaction location. Don't think about it as what are the formalities of where you sell art. Can you afford to sell in that market? That's your market. Kathryn Finney: So we got a good overview of pricing, where to sell as an artist, how to think about art and how to transition into creativity. Is there any sort of advice that you got when you were in this sort of process of transitioning to being an artist full time that you found particularly useful? Natalie Osborne: Mmm. can't say advice that I got. All the advice I got was, you're doing this wrong. You're doing this wrong. You shouldn't be doing this. You're devaluing art by doing it this way. Yes, because it was accessible. And because if I did it the way I was doing it, it couldn't be considered fine art. And if it's not considered fine art, Kathryn Finney: Or do you have advice that you- Kathryn Finney: Interesting, yeah. Kathryn Finney: because your art was accessible. Natalie Osborne: then you're not gonna be purchased by collectors. And then what are you even doing? If there's not collectors who are able to look and say to another collector, we have a Natalie Oldacourt, you know, like to create that connection, which is the connection you want to create as an artist. So it's like, so if that's not what you're doing, then what are you doing? But I didn't listen to that. I know that I'm offering fine art. Kathryn Finney: Exclusivity. Natalie Osborne: I know that based on the fact that I don't question my credentials because I earned them. So I don't question that I... Kathryn Finney: So is it like fine art, the difference between fine art and I guess what they would say is pop art, guess maybe that would. Commercial art, like what's the difference? Fine art just means it's exclusive and that's what makes it fine, not necessarily the quality of the art. Natalie Osborne: Or like commercial art the difference between Natalie Osborne: Well, I guess the way I think about it is like actors, you know, like you have actors who they've been studying or they threw themselves into the theater and then and now, you know, and they're committed to their work, they're working actors, they call them thesbians, you know what I mean? So like, what's the difference between a thesbian and a actor? You know, so it's kind of, it's, I think it's... It's a question of serious, how serious is this artist? And the reason why that question is there is because people are purchasing and they want to know how serious you are because they're making an investment. The purchasing an original painting can be an investment. The people who are purchasing it to have investments, they want to know the difference. They want to be able to differentiate. Are you a fine artist or some other, you know. or commercial artist, or doing it for a whim and you're not going to have any longevity. But I think you can just let those questions roll off your back and just prove, it's all about showing proof. Your work speaks for itself. Your dedication to your work speaks for itself. You just have to prove it. You can go the routes that people would say, that's not fine arts routes, so. Kathryn Finney: Was it? Natalie Osborne: So I'm questioning her. Maybe I shouldn't collect a piece from her. Maybe she's not serious. But then your work is proving that it is. So then they can reconsider later. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. And I think too, it's interesting what the accessibility as someone who is an art collector, I understand that you want the exclusivity is what makes the art valuable, right? If not everyone has this piece or it's hard to get the piece, it makes it valuable. If you were to resell it, if that was your focus was to you're collecting with the hopes of reselling or maybe, you know, family legacy. But I think. And we talked about this before. Most people don't understand that art was always commercial. Like it was not actually, it wasn't a fine sort of thing is you would have the better painters that if you could afford, you would have Leonardo Da Vinci come and paint, you know, like your family, if you could afford him, cause he was, you know, he was that painter back in the day. But painting and art as we know it, a lot of it was because this was the way that you remembered things. didn't have photography. We didn't have those sort of things back then. So the only way you could record a significant time in your life or a significant event was to actually have someone paint it so that you could remember it. So it was very commercial. It's always like, as you said, it's always been commercial. And so for those who are artists who are thinking about how do I turn this into a full-time gig? How do I turn this into a company? You know, let, I think your advice of letting go of all of that. Natalie Osborne: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Natalie Osborne: Yes, you just have to let go. It's so much. It's all so jam-packed on us. And eventually you'll start realizing that some of the rules people are putting on you aren't even true. And they won't be able to show you this chart that's saying that you're devaluing the work by selling it on Etsy. You're devaluing the work by... Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Natalie Osborne: having prints. don't recommend, if you make paintings on canvas, I don't recommend having reproductions on canvas because there is a way to reproduce and you know have have reproductions that look like, that mimic an original painting on canvas. I don't recommend that because that would make someone question whether or not they want to purchase one of your originals. They're questioning when they see a piece at someone's home, is that an original or is that a reproduction on canvas? That's one of the things that, but having prints on photo paper or German paper, this is fine. You're not devaluing anything. And I know there are people listening who are going to be like, she's wrong, she's wrong. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Natalie Osborne: But I'm just, from my perspective, I watch other people profit from deceased artists' work, from reproductions, prints and posters and everything. But when that artist was alive... Everybody told them, you must limit how much you profit on a print of an image that you created. You're the only one with the rights to sell it. You are the sole owner of this image. But... you need to limit how much you can profit from this image. And then when they die, everybody can sell it and nobody has a problem. I mean, we can go buy a Frida Kahlo t-shirt today and nobody's asking that person, did you have the rights to sell that? you're devaluing. Nobody's giving that speech to them. They're only giving it to the person who actually owns the image, actually has the right to profit from it. So eventually you realize some of the things that are being told to you, some of these rules have holes in them. So you realize you have to step away and be the only voice you hear about how you're going to profit from what you do and then move accordingly. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: Hmm. Kathryn Finney: I think that's an amazing point to end on of you get to figure out, particularly in the space of art where you have a lot of vegs, as you say, a lot of things that are not very clear, you get to determine how you move in the space and you get to determine things like your pricing. And using... a market-based approach, going to the art markets and art fairs and getting feedback and seeing what people are going to actually purchase, seeing what other artists are charging and talking with other artists and networking to find out more about who are the galleries that can really sell you or who are the ones that you should watch out for. I think are all amazing advice for people who are going from the art, the creativity, the creativity side of them being the side gig to now creativity being the main gig. Thank you so much, Natalie, for joining us today. If Natalie's story and strategy has got you thinking about how to turn your creativity into a business, then don't keep it to yourself. Take action. Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, and share this episode with anyone you know who's passionate about building a business and life they love. Until next time, I'm Catherine Finney, reminding you to keep building the damn thing.