How to Create a Company Culture Before You Have a Team

Kathryn Finney: Welcome back to Build a Damn Thing, the podcast where I teach you how to use entrepreneurship to build the creative life in which you control. I'm your host, Catherine Finney. In today's episode, we're diving into the power of community, courage, and creating spaces where everyone belongs. What does it take to build a business that centers inclusion? How do you design an company culture rooted in equity and still scale with purpose? We're joined by the phenomenal Alex Westheimen. co-founder and CEO of The Coven, a Minneapolis-based co-working space and community built specifically for women, non-binary, and trans professionals. She's not only changing the way we work, she's redefining who gets to lead. From being named to Inc. Magazine's 100 female founders to earning a Bush Fellowship and the CityPage's Best Entrepreneur Award, Alex's work is a masterclass in what it means to lead with vision, values, and a whole lot of heart. So whether you're building a business or building a movement, this episode is for you. Welcome, Alex. I'm so happy to have you on with us today. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Thanks for having me, Catherine. I'm excited to chat with you. You're such an inspiration to all entrepreneurs. And so I'm like delighted to be alongside you today. Kathryn Finney: Thank you so much. And so I am always excited to talk to a fellow Minnesotan, especially a fellow black Minnesotan. We do exist. know, we exist. What's the old joke people used to say? The only black people in Minnesota was like Kirby Puckett and Prince. And unfortunately both have passed on. like, who was new? Like the guy from the Timberwolves you can tell I don't. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (02:57.09) Yes, we exist, we're here. Alex West Steinman | The Coven come on. Alex West Steinman | The Coven I know we gotta, we gotta represent. We're still here. Kathryn Finney: pay that much attention to the NBA, like, yeah, so, you know, there are more of us. We do exist. It's a robust community and a long history. And so take me back to young Alex. What was your childhood like? And were there any early signs of entrepreneurship? Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Well, I had business cards when I was little, so sure. They were for babysitting. I love to make my own money. I had really, really supportive parents growing up. My mom worked in the federal government. She was a probation officer, a social worker. She worked with juveniles. She's always been a person who leads with a lot of empathy. think even in her federal probation life, she was very much a heart forward person in helping people Kathryn Finney: my God, what did they say? Alex West Steinman | The Coven (04:05.89) find a way out of the life that they were living. And I think I carry a lot of her with me, a lot of that heart. I talk a lot about my dad. And so if you've like seen interviews with me, like I'm always talking about my dad, cause he was the entrepreneur of the family. And so he was very much like, you know, he was worked in insurance and kind of had his own agency and had his own building at one point. My very first job was working the phones at his office when I was like 12 or 13. Kathryn Finney: Me too. Kathryn Finney: You Alex West Steinman | The Coven And that's really where I discovered that I loved people. And so I kind of took like his entrepreneurial spirit and willingness to do whatever it takes to, you know, be able to give his family something amazing and a great life and a way forward. And also the empathy from my mom of like loving people and taking care of them and that hospitality forward type of. personality and that's kind of like where I think I like I'm kind of that nexus of the two of those of like, I want to do something awesome and on my own and I don't want a boss. But I want to do it with like love and care and in community and with other people. My parents were really young when they had me so they were like 19 and 20 when they got married and then like 21 and 22 when they had me. And we were in Germany as a military brat for a bit and I think really like watching the two of them grow up. Like I remember my parents turning 30 years old, which feels like a weird milestone to remember. I was like eight at the time. So I mean, I remember that. And so I got to watch them grow up and watch them make mistakes and learn to parents and learn to work together as co-parents. And I feel really lucky to have that experience. Cause I think a lot of folks maybe see their parents kind of in their... Kathryn Finney: You Yeah. Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (05:56.78) financial prime, know, when they have money, they're able to buy a house perhaps or provide for their family. And my parents really just were figuring it out. I was growing up right alongside them. So they just brought me everywhere. got to, was very young attending lots of parties and activities. Kathryn Finney: in. Kathryn Finney: You know, it's so interesting about this thread of parents. I'm the type of parenting that helps foster entrepreneurship as a parent. And I know you're a parent too. It's something I'm interested in and like how your parents would have fostered. And I remember, you know, my parents, I was one of those kids that was just always doing something. I also had a babysitting business. I don't know if it's a Minnesota thing. Alex West Steinman | The Coven you Kathryn Finney: But, um, you know, we, we cornered the market and babysitting like that. That's what we do. Um, and, but it's one of the things that they did. Uh, and I've heard this from other entrepreneurs is that my parents never told me I couldn't do something. Right. So, so they, my dad's favorite question was not, okay, you can't do this. was how much is this going to cost me? Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: That was, there was never no, Catherine, you can't, you know, go start a newspaper in our neighborhood. Um, it was okay. How much is it going to cost me? Do I have to pay for the copies? How much is that going to be? It was more about like, almost like the process and the funding, like, but not the actual, like you couldn't do it. And that's the theme throughout entrepreneurship. It's interesting that you reflecting that too, of your parents. I'm not only telling you can't, you. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Stay. Kathryn Finney: not only giving you the space to build, but also your parents bringing you in to their endeavors, right? So you're getting training, the 10,000 hours that Malcolm Gladwell talks about, you started at like five, right? When you in your, you saw them building and you learned how to build from that. And so how have you translated those learnings into what you're doing now? Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, I mean, I think for me, it's all about effort. And so, you I love the question of like, how much is this gonna cost me? Yes, that was definitely something my parents did ask, like, how much is this gonna cost me? But it also was about like, how much effort are you willing to put into it? Because if we're gonna invest in it, right, as a parent, you know, and you're gonna, I'm gonna have to drive you everywhere. I'm gonna have to buy you the warmups and all the things, you know, the question was, is how much effort are you willing to put into it? Because... Kathryn Finney: You Kathryn Finney: Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: Exactly. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (08:38.86) That's what entrepreneurship really is. And I've really taken that into the work that I do now, where it's like, how much are you willing to put into this business? Right? It's, blood, sweat and tears. There's not, you know, a paycheck guaranteed at the end of it. And you've got to really love what you're building, in order to do that and make that investment. Cause now it's not like, you know, my parents aren't paying for my startup. It's, me, you know, it's, they're not, you know, they're not driving me to work every day, but. Kathryn Finney: Yeah Alex West Steinman | The Coven I've got to get up, I've got to sacrifice things like spending time with my kids sometimes, or I got to find another way to bring them into the business. There's a lot of effort that is put into it. So watching my parents really work their way into new careers, new jobs, adjusting, having failures, right? Not getting a job that they really wanted or having to leave a career that they really loved or wanted to love. I got to watch a lot of that, like mistakes and the ups and downs, and then the effort that the ability to pick yourself up and move forward is really what I carry into entrepreneurship. you know, Catherine, it's like, you can have the highest high and the lowest low on the same day, in the same hour. It's the same hour. So you've got to be able to like remember why you're doing it. I mean, I love that, you know, kind of. Kathryn Finney: It is up and down. In the same hour. In the same hour. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (10:03.52) revisiting purpose of like why I'm doing this every day. And if you're not able to do that or you're not willing to put the effort in to drive the business forward, it's not gonna work. And that's okay too. Like you have to also be okay with stepping away. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. You know, I think it's interesting. One of the big questions is about, you know, entrepreneurship in life, because I'm all about how do you balance both? And I think, you know, as as a parent in particular, there's a fear of sometimes, especially I think in the parenting world we're at now, which was a bit different than maybe the parenting world that our parents were in, where there's a fear of letting your kids fail. And then a fear of also letting them see you fail. And how important it is to let your children, particularly as you're developing entrepreneurs or future leaders, to let them see you fail and to let them see how you recover from it. And there's important lessons in that, that you can recover from failure. Failure is not the end. It's a part of life. We're all going to fail at something. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: It's how do you recover from it? And a lot of the entrepreneurs I talk with, successful ones like yourself and others, the theme with their parents is like many of them, almost all of them I can think of have witnessed their parents fail in some sort of way, and then usually in a really big way. And they've also witnessed their parents succeed and recover from that failure. And that the lessons they've learned about life, that failure is a part of it. And so there's an inherent ability to take risks. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Totally. Mm-hmm. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: And so, you know, building a coworking space, now that's risky, right? That is risky post we work. And so what gaps did you see in the market that said to you, you know what, I have to do this. I have to build this. Alex West Steinman | The Coven That is risk. Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. So I mean, I want to talk a little bit like what you're talking about bias for risk taking an action is like our disposition as entrepreneurs, as a co-founding team of the coven. Like we have this bias for risk taking an action is because we have this what feels like a safety net, like a like an emotional psychological safety net, you know, because Kathryn Finney: Hmm, it's still raining. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (12:25.1) we have seen failure and have made it to the other side, or we have seen others fail and they've gotten to the other side. When you haven't seen failure or you don't, you aren't able to see the other side of it, right, for whatever reason, maybe you didn't see it growing up, maybe you don't have that kind of like bias for risk taking is like, it feels like if you fail, then the bottom's fallen out and there's no, there's nothing to catch you. And so I think that's like, you know, we always think about what's the worst thing that could happen. It's like the first thing we think about when we launch a new initiative or when we're investing in something with blood, sweat, money, all of those things. We think about what is the worst thing that could happen. And typically the worst thing that could happen is not death. So it's like, you know, until you kind of have to ask that question is like, well, the worst thing that could happen is like, okay, like reputation, which we could build back, you know, or. Kathryn Finney: Exactly. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (13:21.15) we run out of money and we figure it out. There's lots of other things that come up, but you're like, on the other side of that failure, you're going to figure it out. What we saw in the market and why we were able to take that risk together as a four-person co-founding team was we were living and working in an environment that didn't feel inclusive. We worked in the advertising industry. All of us met in the Twin Cities at different agencies. And we were doing a lot of work to help women on top of our day jobs. doing advertising, we were trying to help women stay in the workplace, trying to help women of color get into the industry. I mean, was one of very few women of color directors when I left the industry in the Twin Cities and honestly everywhere at the time there was like 3 % of women were creative directors in the advertising industry, which is insane to me. A lot's changed now, but I think what we found was like, we're not gonna... Kathryn Finney: Thank Alex West Steinman | The Coven make the changes that we want to see in this particular industry in our lifetime. And that to me felt like such a blow. I remember this day, I can put myself in Erin, my co-founder's kitchen, coming to her house and being like, I just found out that I've been making whatever the statistical difference for black women and white women is in paychecks since I started in the industry. And so like my... Kathryn Finney: Hmm Alex West Steinman | The Coven know, counterparts, my other directors who are white women in the industry were making, you know, whatever percentage that gap is nationally. And I was making that here. And I just was like, what, what the F like, how can, why is this, you know, like, I thought, you know, I thought I was exceptional. You know, I did everything that I was supposed to do. I straightened my hair. I talked a certain way. walked a certain way. showed up a certain way. was Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven You know, too quiet. was like quiet when I was supposed to be. I was bold when I was supposed to. I did all the things. I'd read the playbook and that wasn't enough. you know, Erin kind of looked at me and she's like, well, that's, that's not good enough. And so we're going to do something different. We're going to build the damn thing, right? Like we're going to do this. And that's really where the idea for the coven came from was what if we could create the world and environment that we knew we wanted to live, work and play in and. Kathryn Finney: No. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven The co-working space was kind of secondary to that. We didn't really set out to make a co-working space. We set out to create a community space where women could convene and like plot to take over the world. And what happened was as we created like exactly we created an all genders co-working space where we center women. And so when men walk into the space they know that this is a space that centers women and by the way it's like a better environment for everyone. Because when you center women, everyone wins. When you center black women, everyone wins. Kathryn Finney: Secret layer. Alex West Steinman | The Coven When you center trans people, everybody wins. There are benefits to putting our most marginalized communities at the center of the work because everybody benefits from that. And that's the goal of the coven. Kathryn Finney: You know, it's so interesting you bring up this concept of everybody wins, which is kind of like my life model, model that I've learned and have leaned into a lot more recently of, you know, rejecting this notion that if one group wins, the other group loses. That's a false dichotomy that's come out of, you know, this extreme capitalism that we're in. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: I don't think capitalism necessarily bad, but this extreme version that we're in, has pushed us in this idea of like, only like one person can win. we all can't get something from it. We all can't achieve. And that's just simply not true. And so creating spaces that center that I think are super important, as we, as we go in, and as we, go forward in our country, one of the things I wanted to like follow up on is this. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: something that you brought up about changing who you are to fit into spaces and then that not being enough. And about how did that impact you emotionally? Like the changes that you went through in order to be who you were told you needed to be and that still not being enough. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (17:36.44) Catherine, I got a whole Ted talk on this. Truly, I do. But we had, so I grew up in a very white community and so was one of two black girls in my elementary school. And I grew up in kind of a Maple Grove. Yeah, yeah, very white, be white. It's changing now. It's so funny, because my dad, capital W, my parents still live there and my dad always makes fun of. Kathryn Finney: You Kathryn Finney: community did you grow up in? Was it in Minnesota? Okay, yes, that's very white. It's white with a W, a capital W. Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven of me for moving to Minneapolis. He says I live in Edina. I live in Minneapolis. But I'm like, you live in Maple Grove. He's like, it's different now. We have diversity here now. And I'm like, do you? But I was like, yeah, really? But I was like one of two black girls in my elementary school, one of six black people in my high school that I graduated in a class of like 600. So I mean, was it was lonesome, but it was also all I knew. Kathryn Finney: You Kathryn Finney: Really? Alex West Steinman | The Coven you that's how I grew up. So it didn't feel like I was always the exceptional black girl, right? Like growing up. I think black girls who are in that environment, black men too, are often, you're either like, you're the exception to every white person's view of what black people are, right? And you're the representative, you're the black friend, you're the representative of all black people for them. And so it was like such a weird position to be in now that I look at it in retrospect of like, gosh, like what a, Kathryn Finney: Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: You're the black friend. Alex West Steinman | The Coven weird position for like a young black girl to be in to be like, you know, the black person that all the white people know. And going into an industry then, because I went to the University of Minnesota, I graduated with a journalism degree, went into advertising and PR into a very white industry. It kind of felt normal, right? It was a very like, this is what you do. You go into this industry and you change yourself for all the people around you so that you're liked, so that you can advance, so that you can you know, have friends. That's like what I knew, right? Is you just like, you chip away at pieces of yourself. So, I mean, I straightened my hair from when I was like a really young age because that was what all my friends did, you know? I dressed a certain way because that's what all my friends did, you know? And that's like kind of normal for kids is to like, you know, find their identity and their people. But as I got into the industry, Kathryn Finney: Right. Alex West Steinman | The Coven It was less about like what I was bringing to the industry from as like a creative person, as a strategic person, as a person that's like pre-programmed for leadership. I was becoming something that the industry wanted me to be, which was like a very quiet person, right? Like not shaking things up too much. And what was funny about like straightening my hair and wearing Ann Taylor and doing all the things that we did, you know, to like just... Kathryn Finney: Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven you know, fly under the radar, but just high enough to like keep moving up the ladder. You know, I found that like the reviews that I was getting from people were like, you're too quiet. You know, like you don't really have much of an opinion and you know, we just don't know, you know, we just don't know like if you're creative enough. And I heard that and was like, that's not who I am. I'm loud. You know, like it was like, I'm a different person at home than I am showing up in the workplace. And so I started like, Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven really believing, I stopped believing the things that they were telling me like, oh, I'm a quiet person. I'm a, you know, these are the types of, this is the type of person I am. And I started wearing my hair curly. Like I did a big chop and I wore my hair, like I started wearing it in Afro and like. Kathryn Finney: What did they do when you did that? Decided curiosity. How did they respond? Alex West Steinman | The Coven I'm sure someone touched it, but it was like, you know, one of those situations where you're like, you go, someone touched it. Someone had, no, they really can't. It's just like the hand comes out and you're like, Kathryn Finney: It's Minnesota. Someone touched it. Someone had to touch it. They couldn't help themselves. It's the hand, right? And you're like, you do the swerve, the like matrix swerve. Well, no, no, Don't do that. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Oh, no, no, please don't. But you know what? I always tell this story because like I was in an airport and like it was I was traveling a ton. I had a kid at home, like a new baby at home, and I was doing all sorts of things that I was working super late for someone else. know, for someone else, I was working in a big agency and it was like you're living the dream. Like you're working on a cool brand and you're doing all this stuff. But I was like alone in an airport and I saw this woman with a bald head, black woman with a bald head sitting at the bar. And I was like, I really love your hair. I was like, how did you decide to do that? How did you decide to do a big chop? And she was like, I wish I had done it sooner. And I was like, what? And she's like, it's so much freedom. And so I didn't go fully bald, but that woman in the airport, I talk about her all the time because I'm like, yeah, I wish I had just like, been myself sooner. And it's funny, the bigger my hair grew over the course of like a couple of years. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (22:33.25) the louder I got, like the more opinionated I became, the stronger I was in meetings, the more leadership oriented I was, and the more ambitious I became. And like the more I wanted more for the industry, I wanted more for myself. And I had my daughter and I wanted more for her. And I just kept like showing up as my authentic self. And then I started getting reviews that were like, you're too loud, you're too opinionated, you're too self promoting, like all, and I was like, you know what? like, fuck off, like I'm done, you know, like, fuck you, like, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm gonna go start my own thing. And so, you know, I started doing some consulting and stuff on the side, and then we launched the coven and I left the industry in August of 2017. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, right? Fuck you. I mean, yeah. Kathryn Finney: think there's a number of important lessons in what you say, but I think one of the biggest ones, the thing about entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship is like the hardest thing you will ever do. mean, is like that and parenting are like two of the hardest life choices, right? But they're also two of the life choices that can bring the most joy as well. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. Yeah. Kathryn Finney: You talk about this decision to leave an industry where you were making good money, right? The money was good and it was consistent, right? You didn't have to think about whether or not your check was going to clear. You didn't have to make payroll. as I always say to people, you haven't been a CEO until you either have to fire someone that is not fun. and, or figure out how to make payroll. That's the hard. Alex West Steinman | The Coven That's the hardest thing we've ever done. You're so right. I think I saw a quote like that that you've said and I was like, girl, yes, you have not. You haven't done shit until that's been your life. Kathryn Finney: Woof! Woof! The payroll and you know, have friends who, well, I have friends who like have the art of firing. I hate firing people myself. I have to like, actually I pray before I do and meditate so that I can like center my own humanity and that, and fortunately for me, every firing I have done has gone as well as you can expect it to go. I think it's because of like centering that. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (24:50.19) Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: But my God, and then the payroll thing where you're like, okay, carry the one, subtract the two. QuickBooks, don't fail me now, right? But leaving that steady job where the paycheck, the benefits, the form, all of that is kind of guaranteed as long as you're employed, but it's guaranteed you know it's gonna happen. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Please! Kathryn Finney: to have the freedom of being yourself. And I think what you say really highlights the real benefit of entrepreneurship that sometimes I don't think really gets pushed forward, and particularly for people of color or people who don't fit in a traditional notion of rich white guy who went to Stanford or whatever, that there's this freedom that you get to live the life that you wanna live. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Mm-hmm. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, yeah. Kathryn Finney: That's the freedom. That's one of the big pluses of entrepreneurship. Because you are your own boss, you get to show up the way that you want to show up. You get to choose that. And there's a freedom to that. There is a freedom, there's a value to that, that you get to be yourself. And that is so important for those of us who are outside of this traditional notion of Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: who can lead and who can be, and the ability to be ourselves. Cause a lot of our parents did not get that freedom, right? They did not get the freedom to dress the way they want to dress or to wear their hair natural. Or, you know, in my case, I like to change my hair like every day, different wig, weave, whatever, braids, you name it. But they didn't have that freedom, right? They had to wear the blue suits and things like that. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven No, no. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (26:26.19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: And so as you continue to build the coven and you create this community, like how do you build that DNA of belonging? How do you build this sort of space where people get to be themselves? How do you bake that into the DNA of your business? Alex West Steinman | The Coven Alex West Steinman | The Coven (26:59.34) Yeah, yeah. I love what you were just talking about too, about the freedom. Like I always think like the biggest freedom is choice. Like you get to decide how, when, where you show up. And I love that. My dad always asks and actually when I was debating leaving the industry, he was like, I could like picture myself in the Minneapolis skyways walking in like on the phone with him. And I'm like, I think I'm gonna do this. I think I'm gonna quit. And he was like, well, are you looking for freedom, money or power? Kathryn Finney: Freedom, money, or power? Alex West Steinman | The Coven Cause you can have two of them in entrepreneurship and it's usually freedom and power, you know, cause the money isn't guaranteed. Um, and I think, you know, in, I look kind of looked at advertising and where I was and I was like, I don't really have any, I mean, I have the money, but I don't have freedom or power in the industry. And so I thought about that and was like, well, I'd rather have two of those and I'd rather lose the money, like potential to lose the money, but have freedom and power. And that's why, that's my why I left the industry. You know, I also, left my purpose and because it was aligned with my purpose, I want to be a part of, you know, build joyful community is my purpose and my real why. But if I look at like, if you can have freedom, money or power, what are the things that are important to you? And that might change over the course of. life, right? When I got into the industry, was like, money, I just want money. That's it. want to, I want to, I want to, you know, I need to buy a house. I want to, you know, I want to get married. I want to do all that. That when I have kids, like I need money to do those things. But it was like at the sacrifice of, of power and freedom. and that's why I left. Kathryn Finney: Please, please, yes. Kathryn Finney: Rate of money and power. We're talking about building this, baking it into the DNA of your business, but I wanna take a moment just to give a shout out to black dads because those of us who've had the honor and privilege of just having strong black male figures in our lives, particularly as black women, but having Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, like that. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: strong black dads, like my dad, he passed away a little bit over 20 years ago. I don't think he would have considered himself a feminist, but he was. Very much so, very, very, very much so. And just having this, like, you know, their ability to cut through and ask a very specific question that really cuts at the heart of things, you know. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (29:12.6) Sure. Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, he's like, what do you want? Kathryn Finney: What do you want, especially cause we, you know, could be as, as entrepreneurs and dreamers, we can be a little bit in the clouds and like, okay. And I remember my dad of many things. One of the, like, there was a period where I was dressing really bad. Minnesota wanting to like fit in and not stand out. and I remember I was in the car with my dad and, and I don't know, I was wearing some horrible grunge look from, don't know. And those of us who remember grunge, was not the fashion highlight of the world. But I was doing, looking just really not good, right? And my dad said to me in the car, he's like, I don't know why you're dressing down. He's like, look, you are 5'10", you walk in the room and people see you. They just see you. couldn't even, he said, you couldn't even hide yourself even if you wanted to. So stop doing it. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: Give him something to look at. And that like stuck with me. I think I was 17 at that time when he said that. And it was, you know, again, the black deck cutting through, girl, you looking crazy. You looking crazy out here. I'm just telling you. But it was like from a place of love. It wasn't critical. was you're looking, you're reducing yourself. You're being smaller. That was his message. You are being too small. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yep. Fix it. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Yes. Kathryn Finney: And you are not a small person in any way, physically, emotionally, intellectually, you are not a small person. So stop being small, Catherine. Like it does not serve you and it does not serve anyone else. And so, you know, what your father said about freedom, power. mean, that's like classic black dad. and, but it's so incredibly powerful, right? That you have to choose what is it that you want? And so how did you take that? Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: and then build it into the business. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I ask myself that every day, like with decisions every day that stuck with me. I mean, I transport myself back to that skyway every day and I go like, why am I making this decision? Is this for freedom, money or power? And sometimes the decisions change, right? Like, so it's like, why would we invest in this program or something? It's for the money. It's so we can make payroll, you know, why would I do this, you know, speaking opportunity? it's for power because like I want, I want that power. want to influence like. Why would I want to have folks? We do like a collective time off at the coven where like we close our doors and everybody goes home. Like we have like our member, our staff get time off. It's paid time off. And we do that at the end of the summer. Cause in Minnesota, it's nice to have that time off. And then we only get two weeks. So we close in the end of August right before Labor Day. And then we do it at the end of the year between Christmas and New Year's. Kathryn Finney: It sure is. Because you only got like two weeks. You might as well live it up. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Like why we do that is for freedom. Like we do that because we want people to have a bit of freedom. Like it's a reason why people work at the coven is to have that like flexibility because you got to show up every, cause the other days you got to show up every day in the space. So why not have some time for freedom? So we bring that into the decisions that we make every day, not just like monetary decisions, but also like how we create that culture. And I know I didn't answer your question around how to create that inclusive culture, but I bring that, question into, yeah, into the work that we do every day is like what, Kathryn Finney: Yeah, I think you did actually. Alex West Steinman | The Coven why are we doing this? And I bring like, I got like black dad sitting on my shoulder going like, like, why are you doing this? Yeah, why are you doing this? Kathryn Finney: Right? Black dad, always right here. No, I mean, seriously, my, my, my, it's like my black, my black dad is like a voice in my head where he's, you know, like asking the questions that need to be asked, right. Cutting through. Um, and that voice, that black dad voice, um, it's a new thing now is going to, it's probably going be on the internet. The black dad voice. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, hashtag Black Dad. Kathryn Finney: Hashtag Black Dad. But the Black Dad voice is, you know, it cuts through with love, right? It's a love, it's a, I want you to win, so I'm going to ask you these questions that you need to figure out how to answer. I'm going to ask you how much is this going to cost me? Not because I care about the money, but because I want to know if you've thought through what you're going to do. I remember I was getting married, my dad was very sick, and... Alex West Steinman | The Coven (33:54.86) Yes. Yes. Yeah. Kathryn Finney: I was like, you know, I had big ideas for this wedding and he was like, okay, I need you to do a spreadsheet. So I have to do an Excel spreadsheet, a budget. I basically had to do a pitch deck for my wedding. That's, pretty much what I did. Right. I had to pitch them on the wedding. what the benefits were. Alex West Steinman | The Coven That make sense? Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven I love that. I love that. I love that. I bet you probably put together a pinpoint pitch deck. Kathryn Finney: I did. It had like colored tabs. mean, it was like a whole, I was like, okay. But, and I got everything I wanted. Like it was, he was going to give the money for the wedding no matter what. But he wanted to know that I think through it. Did I think through the cost that I think? And it's interesting years later how that impacts me in business, right? Like I think through the cost. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Yeah. Kathryn Finney: And even as I become more successful, I'm still like, I tell people I'm still cheap. Like, you know, I will do a target before they stop liking black people. Like I do a target. I will mix a target with Prada. I have no problem doing that. Or, you know, a Costco, like that's my jam. I'm there, you know, but, but just seeing that impact and how it builds in the business. so I would say for you, I think you, you are. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (35:06.69) Mm-hmm. no. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: You are, you have explained how you create the space because you give your team the freedom to rest, which is, I think, so undervalued how much rest we need during the pandemic. I think we were all tired, tired. think everyone realized that when we stopped, I know I did. I'm like, how tired I am, just tired, like bone tired. And now I'm forced to stop. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (35:30.99) Mm-hmm. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (35:35.08) Mm, yes, yeah. So tired. Kathryn Finney: And I can't do anything but sleep and, you know, play with my son. And there was really nothing else to do. and we realized like how tired we were. so creating that space in your company where you give your, your staff space to rest. And that's, that's important. That's inclusive, right? That, is in creating inclusive space right there that you're giving people the time to take a break and breathing. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (36:09.56) Mm-hmm. It's important. Kathryn Finney: but how do you do that when you have these other things, the funding, the scaling that you have to do, right? Like, how do you balance the, the, the business needs, the business imperatives with this need to also create the space where people can, can breathe and relax and rest so that they can do the business imperatives. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, I think like what you're getting at is a constant battle with entrepreneurs, but it's also with leaders right now because people expect a lot out of their workplaces right now. Like they're demanding and I think it's smart. their demand, employees are demanding more from their employers in terms of time off, in terms of inclusive environments. Like I think that's needed, right? There's a reset that's needed in the workplace. But there's also this need for, we have to, also work, we have to also put effort into the business, we have to also deliver the things that need to be delivered on time, when they need to be delivered, because if we don't do that, then we don't have a business and you don't have a job. And so there's this balance that you have to play around with and it's not straightforward. So, you I wish it was like, well, if you do these three things, then like your employees will love you and everything will be just fine and you'll be profitable. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (37:35.49) But the reality is, you have to consistently check in with folks because I think what happens is we started this business wanting to be an inclusive environment, a space for belonging for both employees and members. And that continues, that's still true. But in the beginning when we had our first handful of employees, I think what happens is oftentimes employees go like, well, this is an inclusive environment or this is a space for belonging. so accountability is not there, right? Kathryn Finney: Hmm, yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven And then when you bring accountability to the table, then people go, well, why are you being so mean? Why are you holding me accountable? so belonging can't be at the cost of accountability. And in fact, I think having really clear, defined expectations and an understanding of how you're creating an environment of belonging, it creates an environment that people go, I know where the boundaries are. I understand what is expected of me. And so I'm not surprised when if I don't deliver a thing or if I step in this direction or if I need time off, I know what to do in those situations. And we've done it well and sometimes and other times we haven't done it well. And I think as entrepreneurs, it's hard to do everything all the time really well. And so we listen all the time. And I think that's the best thing you can do when you're building inclusive community or you're building a company is like listening to what your employees are saying. And it might not necessarily be like you're gonna deliver on everything they're asking for. You can't give a raise to someone every time they ask for a raise. You can't change your systems just because someone doesn't like them, right? But what you can do is like, hear what they're like, listen to what they're actually saying. Are they asking for a raise or are they just, do they need more recognition, right? Do they need a path to the raise? Because yeah, maybe they probably do want a raise. Everybody wants a raise. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven But like, they looking for the, when will I hit the milestone that allows me to make more money? What does the company need to do in order for everyone to advance? Like being very clear and transparent about that is important. And I think that oftentimes like sometimes there's this kind of insidiousness that happens when people are like, well, like it's not transparent. And I don't think that it's a lack of transparency. that the entrepreneur or the leader is trying to do. They're not holding anything, keeping it from people. But what I think it is is that people want clarity and they want direction, especially in this environment where you don't know tariffs, ups and downs, the groceries, the eggs are too expensive. Everything is up and down and you're constantly getting information that you can't control. So if your job is the one thing that you can control, you want to know, you want... Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven real clarity in how am I supposed to show up every day and what is the expectation of me. And so I think that's just, you have to consistently remind yourself as an entrepreneur to bring that to the table. Kathryn Finney: think you highlight something that is a challenge as a leader, which is as leaders and CEOs, we're often at the macro level of thinking of things. We're seeing it across all different departments. And as staff or as employees or team members, you're often at the micro level, right? Or at least a more micro level than where the CEO is at. And sometimes those different places conflict, right? What you're seeing happen is, cause you're looking in this, you know, maybe you have one or two staff members that you manage yourself, but the CEO is managing 50. And so they're seeing things across that you're not able to see because you're not across, right? You're focused on your sort of space. And I've seen conflicts happen in that where you have an employee who is Alex West Steinman | The Coven (41:24.91) Totally. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Mmm. Kathryn Finney: you know, focused on where they're sort of at and what they're managing and what they're doing. And the CEO is focused on this sort of global sort of challenge. And as a CEO, communicating the global challenges in a way that those that are in the more micro level can sort of understand and translate so that they have an idea of what's going on, it's sometimes really hard because you're putting out 10 different fires and you forget to like explain to people, hey, I'm putting out fires right now. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven guys. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, yeah. Kathryn Finney: I, know, that, that I have my fire hose and I'm doing that and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to neglect you. didn't. Yes, you want to raise, you want to have that conversation and I want to have that with you, but this department over here is failing and that impacts your department and it impacts our ability to be able to give you that race. So I'm trying to put this fire out so that later we can have this discussion, right. As a CEO. Yeah. Right. We get so many things going on that we sometimes forget how to bring people in. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (42:08.75) Totally. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Totally, totally. Yeah, it's hard. Kathryn Finney: And especially at the small business level, because everyone is so important in small business, right? Cause you don't have a lot of team members. So, Maldine. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes, we had a team. We're a small team. We've got seven locations, but we've got like 13 people total and six of them work in the spaces. So I mean, the rest of us are like, we're a very small team that's like scaling a business via franchising, an entirely new business model. And it's exciting. We can absolutely do it. I see the vision, but it's like, how do you continuously communicate the vision, continuously talk about the changes and the shifts and the... Kathryn Finney: you home. Alex West Steinman | The Coven external environment things we can't control and the internal environment things we can control and bring people along the way. And I think to the point of like, you know, where employees feel a sense of belonging, it also means that like, some people might not want to go the distance, right? Like the shifting in a business, especially in a small business or startup, like you're in the space where it's like, this environment or the business that it is today might not be what you want to work in tomorrow. So, and that's okay. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven So I think like it's being willing to like hold things less tight too as a CEO. And it's the hardest thing I've probably learned to do is to like let go of everyone else's expectations of how I'm supposed to show up for them and really come into it with, know, come into conversations with a bit of clarity, giving myself time to go like, you know, I can't respond to this right now. I don't want to just react. I want to come back with a thoughtful response. And so give me Kathryn Finney: Mmm, yeah, yeah. Kathryn Finney: Ooh, yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Give me some time. And if they're not willing to give you time or they want answers immediately, again, it might not be the right person or it might not be the right team or it might not be the right opportunity for them long-term because as a CEO, you have to find time for rest and you have to find time for clarity. Because if you're gonna just continue to react, people are gonna continue to push you because they expect fast answers. They expect you to know what... Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: right away. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (44:31.98) right away what you're doing. And I think that's not reasonable. It's not a reasonable expectation, but if that's the expectation you're setting as a CEO or a leader in a company, that's what people are going to continue to expect from you. Kathryn Finney: And that challenge, right? That challenge as a CEO of giving yourself the space to think. we're laughing, but, just in the, in the lifetime to have been an entrepreneur, that has been one thing that I've learned. Like one of the biggest lessons is to create space and I have to do it at like almost a set interval. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. When? When, Catherine? Kathryn Finney: for me to think. And that could be, you take space, if it's daily meditation, if it's, I have a gratitude journal, I highly recommend that for everyone. It just helps you frame things differently, you start to see things differently, it starts to center the joy and the things that you're thankful for. And entrepreneurship, can be times where it's like, Alex West Steinman | The Coven (45:13.89) Yeah, yeah. Kathryn Finney: everyone's shitting on you. Like at once, right? All the time, everyone's shitting on you. And sometimes it's like very unfair, right? It's like things that have, you cause everyone's bringing their own unique experiences and life experiences to every relationship they're in, including at work. And so, you know, how do you manage that as a CEO? Like how do you, you have, Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, yes, yes, all the time, all the time, yeah. Kathryn Finney: people who have these expectations of you, particularly when you are a woman of color and specifically as a black woman, expectations in terms of almost like mothering expectations that they have of you, right? To be their moms and to sort of, you know, manage them. Like, how do you handle that, that level of expectations placed on you? Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, I went through therapy for this. So let me just get a therapist. Yeah, it's helpful. I think, you know, I talked about this before, like letting go of expectations is harder than it sounds. Like I can say it all day long, let go of expectation, but I had to practice it every day, right? Like your expectation of me is maybe something that I'm putting out there. Like maybe I'm accidentally like doing the thing. Kathryn Finney: No, that's no joke. I highly recommend that too. Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven because I'm meeting your expectations and now I'm not. But I think the piece about mothering is really fascinating because as a four person co-founder group, we care for one another. One of my co-founders, Liz, her son has cancer and he's been going through a really, really tough time. He's on the, hopefully on the other side of this, he's got, on wood, he's got two more chemo treatments, he a leg amputation. He's such an incredible 16 year old kid. We love him so much. Kathryn Finney: Right. Alex West Steinman | The Coven during that time period, like Liz has had to step out so that she can really care for her family. And we as co-founders have really stepped in to support her and take care of her responsibilities of the business. And now she's coming back into the business. So we've always had, even from the very beginning, this idea of lean in and lean out. And if you need time away, we're gonna surround you and take care of you. But I think that gets really hard the faster you're growing. It gets hard to separate your personal needs from what the business needs. And it's a constant reminder of checking in with one another so that you're not holding animosity towards somebody because of what they need to take care of. And I think this situation with Liz has been really eye-opening for us to ensure that we are centering the humanity of what she's going through because taking care of your family is more important than taking care of a coworking space. It gives us all perspective. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven But I think from like every day having to check yourself a bit on like, I over mothering people is like, you need to know what your business needs, right? And if your business needs deliverables every day at a certain time or a certain thing, like you have to know what those are. And you also have to know what your employees need. How do you make sure that you're getting the most out of them? How do you know that they're, you know, what they're going through on their personal side? And if what's happening on their personal side can't deliver what your business needs, then like that's a conversation that needs to be had. And it's gotta be a clarity conversation. can be a kind conversation. You can come at it with empathy and care, but it also has to be rooted in like the business needs this. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven And if we can't deliver this with the resources that we currently have, then we can see if we have other resources. But if we don't, because we're a business, a small business, like we've got to figure out what's next. And I think it's that constant checking in with yourself of like, I don't have to change my business to ensure that it's right for someone else. You know, like the belonging piece of it is like, I have to have like the core values, the core, you know, like Kathryn Finney: Yeah, right. Alex West Steinman | The Coven the mission, the vision, the values, like those things really matter, that can't be moved. But I can't change the company, the business structure, so that it fits one individual. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah, the macro versus the micro, yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (49:57.09) You know, it's true, it's true. And I think like we do, we do take on so much. You know, we take, I think as leaders, we take on too much of everyone else's stuff and you have to remind yourself, like, you gotta, like, I go outside, like tactically, I go outside and I like, I leave everybody's stuff outside. You know, I like go put my feet in grass. I'm a, I'm an earth sign, I'm a Taurus, my birthday's on Sunday. Like I, I literally, I leave it outside because Kathryn Finney: Alright. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven If you continue to carry everyone else's stuff, it becomes your stuff. And then you're like, mad at your kids or mad at your husband or mad at your friends or whatever for reasons that aren't even your own. Kathryn Finney: It becomes your stuff. Kathryn Finney: One of my favorite quotes, I have a lot of favorite quotes, but one of is from Ilana Van Zandt, and the Oprah lady, and a lot of people know that, right? Like, your life, Ilania, Ilania, I always say her name wrong. But people know her from Oprah. And one of the things she always says, and I love this quote, is, sometimes you meet people where they're at, and sometimes you leave them there. Alex West Steinman | The Coven the Oprah lady. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes, that's it. That's it. Kathryn Finney: Right. It's so like, that's it. Like sometimes you meet them where they're at. And then sometimes you're like, you know what? I'm, I'm not going to be able to be there with you right now. and so I'm, I'm gonna let you do you, no judgment, but I'm gonna let you do you because you doing you is not me doing me. And so I'm going to go over here and, know, maybe we'll, we'll see each other again, or maybe we won't. And I think that's really, important, particularly for women leaders. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: And particularly for women leaders who also happen to parent children. And not just women leaders, but any sort of leader who is a parent to a child. Because sometimes we can bring that into our professional relationships that need to sort of parent and help people because we're in that mold. That's a mold that we know really well. But sometimes you can't do that. A lot of times you can't do that. And that's not your role. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Mm-hmm. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Mm-hmm, yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. Kathryn Finney: as a leader. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Well, and think, Catherine, sometimes I think as I've learned how to be a more clear and decisive and caring leader, I have become a more clear and decisive caring parent where I am not going to do this for you. I am going to, I'm going to give you what I think you should do, but it is your ultimate choice. I'm giving you freedom and power, no money, giving you freedom and power to make this decision. And if you fail, that's on you. Kathryn Finney: Yes, right, freedom and power. No money though. Alex West Steinman | The Coven And I will be here to catch you because I care and love you, but you need to experience this yourself. so I bringing the things that I'm learning in business to, to parenthood. And it's making a huge difference because I can see my kids like being less afraid to fail, being less afraid to have hard conversations with myself, their dad, you know, other people and their life, their coaches, you know, like I'm, I feel so lucky to be building this business at the same time I'm building little humans because I'm learning, I'm pushing and pulling, I'm learning these two things together in a way that feels like pulling my hair out all the time, but I do also feel like I'm becoming a more whole person doing this. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: When you're managing a family, you're managing a business. A family is a small business. that's, know, shout out to the stay at home moms, because I think in the stay at home dads, I think what people don't understand, particularly in our, you know, patriarchal society that's very focused on men and work and things like that, is that the amount of work it takes to manage a family and its similar skillset. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Kathryn Finney: It is a, that's why a lot of stay at home moms actually become very successful entrepreneurs, right? Right. It makes a ton of sense. Cause you've got to man, you're managing people who sometimes don't listen to you, um, who may or may not do what they want to do. Right. They're their own human beings. are managing finances, usually in a budget and you have to make it stretch and you have to figure out resources, resource allocation, right? Moms and stay at home parents are really good at the resource allocation sort of situation. Alex West Steinman | The Coven It makes a ton of sense. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes, yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: Where do we spend our time? Where do we spend our money? Where do we spend these different things? And so, I think there's a lot of parallels between parenting and entrepreneurship and the skill sets that you need for both and being able to translate into both. And as a parent, one of the things I've really tried to do is to bring my son and include him on my journey. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Totally. Kathryn Finney: because there's a couple of reasons why, particularly as entrepreneurs, you want to do this, is there are going to be times where you're to be gone a lot. And they don't want to know that mommy or daddy is just like in this black hole. They don't know where you're at. You're just out in these streets, right? Like, have no idea where you're at. So by bringing them in, it gives them a con. They know why you're gone, right? So. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (54:56.76) Yeah. Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Mm-hmm Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Yeah. Kathryn Finney: My son, Christian, he knows mommy is traveling because mommy's doing a speech. He's seen me speak. He's come to my speeches. He's actually like my little social media person. Now he takes pictures for us. He's actually quite good. I pay him. He has his own business now. He has his own business cards. But he knows that when I'm not at the school activity, it's not because mommy's off doing whatever. There's no narrative for him to create. He knows what the narrative is, that mommy's speaking. Alex West Steinman | The Coven I love it! Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Yes. Kathryn Finney: Mommy gets, you know, this is how we are able to take our trips and things like that. So my mommy's out doing important stuff so that we get to do amazing stuff together. And so by bringing your kids and your family in general into what you're building. Big it's I'm a big, big proponent of family, friends, whoever you consider family. don't mean family, just genetic, whatever you consider family, right? Bringing them into what you're doing and having them see. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Don't hide it. Kathryn Finney: The people who love you want you to win. They want to help you. So give them like opportunity to do it. and there's one other story I love telling us about when I was running digital and divided, we had a pitch contest and it wasn't really a contest. It was just like a pitch session for, some of the founders who had went through our program. They picture their companies to a group of investors. and at this particular pitch contest, one of our founders, her parents, her father was a bus driver. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Kathryn Finney: Her mother, I believe, was a teacher. And her parents were like going around and pitching her to investors. And I mean, they were like waxing poetic about her company. And everyone thought that her parents were like investors, like business people. And she's like, no, my dad's a bus driver. But as soon as I started my company, my parents got subscriptions to Ink Magazine and that company. Alex West Steinman | The Coven wow. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (57:04.44) Sure. Kathryn Finney: And so, and they're like, you know, sending me little articles. Did you read about this or have you talked to this investor? And because she brought them in another one of our founders, her parents, parents were immigrants. she's Latina and, her, her mother was a housekeeper. Her father was a landscaper and they couldn't invest in her, but Alex West Steinman | The Coven Wow. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (57:41.71) Mmm. Kathryn Finney: every time she would travel to these pitches, know, as an entrepreneur, you're always on planes trying to, you know, get your hustle in. Her house would be clean. There would be food in her, her refrigerator to be stocked with food. You know, everything together. That was their way of contributing. And her mother, she asked her mother like, you know, why are you doing this? And her mother said, well, the way people said what you're doing is good. The way people felt like. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Wow. Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Eheh Kathryn Finney: And it's good. And so I was like, okay, like, you know, they're like, this is a good business. Let them in. It may not be money, right? Sometimes your family can't do money. Your friends and people you love can't do money. They don't have the money, but there's things that save you money and save you time and effort. Bring them in so that they can do that. So as we close, I would love to hear. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (58:11.01) Yes. Yes. Let people invest in you. Right. Let your village take care of you. Right. Right. Yes. Alex West Steinman | The Coven Totally. Kathryn Finney: sort of your advice for when things get tough, because we're in a tough market right now, right? How, as a entrepreneur, how do you navigate it? Like, what are some words of wisdom when things get tough? Alex West Steinman | The Coven Yeah, I've been writing a lot about this, Catherine, because I think entrepreneurs need to hear this. it's that so often we say no before someone else does. So you walk into a pitch meeting and you already believe this person is going to say no to you. Or you don't even follow up on the conversation because you've already said no. They've already said no in your head. So and your fear, you would rather say no to yourself. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (59:16.75) then hear someone else say it to you. And I'll tell you, we raised a pre-seed round of money back in 2019. We heard 300 no's and it was hard, easy. mean, was like, the first handful of meetings, was like, ouch, ouch, ouch. But you get more, you grow that tough skin and you start to like go, I'm just gonna eat these no's for breakfast. and you get used to hearing no. So then we started walking in the meetings going like, we're probably gonna hear no, but we're gonna do this anyways. And it changed the way that we like approach the conversation, like we were already defensive in the conversation. And it took us going, well, what if they said yes? You know, which is like just such a mindset shift. It's like from like walking in the room and knowing someone's gonna say no, and you kind of come into the pitch like, ugh, like me or don't, bye, you know. But then you come into the pitch like really confident knowing this is the business that is the best business that you could possibly invest in. it's your loss if you say no, you know, like believing in yourself so much. Because if you're going to bet on anything, you better bet on yourself. Right. Like, why are you doing this if you're not betting on yourself? So I always say, like, don't count yourself out before someone else does. Right. Like, you got to believe enough in your own bullshit to show up every day. And that's like not just for pitching investors, that's for like Kathryn Finney (01:00:16.139) Yeah. Kathryn Finney (01:00:32.3) Right? Alex West Steinman | The Coven (01:00:36.568) client meetings, that's for showing up and if you gotta go pitch to get your product in a store, follow up, show up and keep showing up and believe that there is someone who's gonna say yes and it could be the person who's across from you. Because I think that's where a lot of entrepreneurs stop. People don't start businesses every day because they're going, someone's gonna say no. And so, yeah, just say yes. What if they said yes? Kathryn Finney (01:01:00.71) of yes. What if they said yes? That's a great place to end this episode. Thank you so much, Alex. Make sure you all visit the coven in Minneapolis. Do you have other locations outside of Minneapolis? Alex West Steinman | The Coven (01:01:13.282) Yes, please. Yeah, we have a Minneapolis and a St. Paul location. So those are our two headquarters locations. And then we have five franchise locations between Minnesota and Wisconsin. We're expanding through the Midwest and Southeast. I'm really excited to have real community spaces owned by community owners in these neighborhoods. So on our way up. Kathryn Finney (01:01:28.693) Yeah. I love it. I love it. So thank you so much. We'll definitely follow you on social media, visit the coven when you're in Minnesota or join if you are in any of those locations. And thank you all for joining us for build a damn thing. Make sure you follow us on YouTube and send a like and make sure you also leave an amazing review. and until next time, keep building a damn thing. Thank you all. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (01:01:35.758) Thank you, Catherine. Alex West Steinman | The Coven (01:01:39.648) Please yeah coming up