How to Make Joy Part of Your Business Strategy

Kathryn Finney: coming. And for those of you who remember that time period, like any time snow came to Atlanta, was like treacherous. And this, think the year before was when they had that big ice storm where people had to leave cars and like 75, 85 and like walk because they couldn't drive on the ice. And it was really crazy. So this was the following year and everyone was like super, super scared. And we were like, we got to get out of Atlanta before this hits because we were headed to North Carolina and then found ourselves stuck in North Carolina for like three days. It was Darlene Gillard Jones: I like three days at a little holiday inn or something, some little hotel that had like microwaveable food in the lobby. And that's all we could eat as well as Walmart food. we made a bear was like the storm is coming. And so we got tapenade, we got crackers, we got lettuce leaves. Kathryn Finney: And Walmart didn't have anything, they cleaned Walmart out. It's all the bougie food was left. That's all the bougie food, like the tapenade, artisanal crackers. Darlene Gillard Jones: We had some. That's right. That's right. And you know, but what it did was it gave us a bonding moment, you know, a moment in time to really get to know one another as people, not just as, you know, the professionals that we were, but just personally, right? Thankfully, we had two hotel rooms across the hall from each other and not in the same room. That, don't know, Catherine, who knows what would have happened if that were the case. Kathryn Finney: that would have been. I know, who knows who would still be here? Because that was a situation, mean, because we really couldn't, we could not go anywhere. We could not go anywhere. Because I remember it snowed for like a whole day. It was just crazy. And then we get to the airport when we can finally leave, we kept checking, kept checking, kept checking, like when we could leave and there was a flight that was available. So we were like, we're just gonna drive to the airport and see what we can do. And all the cars were like lying upon the road. to get into the rental car place because you couldn't actually park in the rental car lot because it was so much snow. And I remember we got out, we finally checked the car in, we go to, I think we were flying United. For some reason, United sounds like what we were on. And we're in line in the lounge and there's this guy in front of us who was like, I must, I can only fly to LaGuardia. Darlene Gillard Jones: Right. Kathryn Finney: I can only fly like he's it was just like he could not let that go is like, oh, I don't know if that's what he said, but that's what it sounds like in my head that he was like, look, I hear the Gawtia. Like, that's all I can fly in. There was flights to Westchester, which is about 30, 45 minutes outside the city. Very, very super easy to get into the city from. And he was just debating, debating, debating, debating. And finally, we were like, we'll take the seats. Like, we'll take them. And the the. Darlene Gillard Jones: Right. Kathryn Finney: and tendon at the desk was like, good, before he could even change his mind. And we got out. And I remember the landing was kind of crazy too. There was like some little gust of wind. It was just like, but at that point I was like, you know what, this tracks. I remember being when the like airplane tipped on landing. was like, yeah, this tracks. This week has been, yeah, of course we're gonna have a little some incident on the tarmac. Yes, okay, thank you. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah, I think everyone. I know. Kathryn Finney: Thank you, sir. Whatever he did to correct made us land. Okay. And we're here. Darlene Gillard Jones: think that's when we realized that, or maybe you realized like, okay, she's a ride or die. Cause you were like, you know what, let's just, we're just going to try to get to the airport. Even though there were no flights available actually. Like we were just like, we can't stay here any longer. And I was like, Beth, let's do it. And we made it and we got out of there and you having the wherewithal to say, we'll take it. You know, while the guy, him and hard and you were behind him in line, you know, it's again, you just stepping up and being out front. You know what I mean? I think that's something that. I've noticed about you that I think is a really great characteristic is that you're willing to step out in front. Kathryn Finney: But you know, when you're building something, especially in the early days, it's hard. And especially in the early days where there is no roadmap, where you don't have something to follow, it's really important to choose who you build with very well. Not everyone can be in the trenches with you. Not everyone can be ride or die. Some people, and this is not a judgment at all, but some people need stability and consistency. And you don't have that at the beginning of something, of anything, whether it's a startup, a new organization, even relationships, you may not have stability. You're still figuring out, you're still creating the blueprint, you're still creating the framework. And one of the things with you was that you were there and then you brought a sense of levity to the situation, because some of our situations could be really tense and you would make them like, fun. We would go to South by Southwest. And I remember the one time the Microsoft party, right? Went to this big party, Questlove was DJing, but he was playing like the Happy Days theme, the theme from Sanford and Son. Darlene Gillard Jones: Thank theme songs were playing. Kathryn Finney: You can't dance to the Happy Days theme. I don't know. I've never been to a club where they're like, I'm going to, this is fire, fire, fire, yo, fire, like Happy Days theme. Put your hands in the air, like, with your cutting hands. Darlene Gillard Jones: No! And everyone was recording. They just had their phones up in the air. Kathryn Finney: I'm like, why are we, what is this? Like it was, and you know, coming from New York, where we were from, where like you partied and we had been to Questlove events before. So it was like, this isn't, they're just sitting here filming on their sidekicks, because this was 2012. Their sidekicks, you know, typing on their Blackberries. Was there an iPhone, maybe the earliest, earliest versions of iPhones, but I don't. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: remember there being like an excessively large amount of iPhones. I'm sure there were some there. And people were just standing there. And then he played a song and we started dancing. I think I took my shoes off because I was always notorious for doing that. people at first were kind of staring at us because this is a tech space and they're kind of like, what's going on here? Can we do that? Is it OK for us to dance? And they just started joining in. And one of the things that we brought to the startup world. And there was a lot that we brought to the startup world, digitalundivided myself personally, you personally as well. But one was creating a pathway for these like really nerdy tech white dudes to let go and have some fun. And seriously, and there's a number of stories, particularly of Darlene, like breaking the hearts of many. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: nerdy white guy tech dudes. know, Silicon Valley, the whole Pacific Northwest is littered with Darlene's broken hearts from Darlene. And there was that place. But I remember one particular time in Portland, Oregon, we were doing some work with the city of Portland, which was doing a lot of work around diversity and tech and trying to figure out how to expand its tech scene. And I happened to have quite a bit of family in Portland, about half my family. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: is in Portland. Most of Portland's black folks are somehow related to me by marriage, by blood. mean, you name it. Portland is full of Catherine's relatives. And so we go, my favorite cousin Cedric takes us out and we go to this club and there was a lot of dudes in flannel shirts and it was called Harlem. I lived in Harlem at the time, which was like hilarious. I'm like, this is not, Darlene Gillard Jones: It's called Harlem, a club. Kathryn Finney: This is not Harlem. And we go and like Darlene comes in and when I say these like flannel wearing bearded hipster artisanal beard drinking like white guys just lost their minds. They could not handle Darlene. They could not handle it. Darlene Gillard Jones: Go. It was like, they were at the Harlem nightclub in Portland, Oregon. And it was like a girl from Harlem, cause that's what I look like, was plopped in the middle of the dance floor. And you know, we already said it, we love to dance. it was just, that was definitely one of the highlights of our time together, Catherine. know, just talking about like joy and good times. There were just so many, know, that flight out of North Carolina was crazy, was crazy. Just so many different moments. And, you know, I think you and I really got along. You're from Minnesota, straight no chaser. I'm a New Yorker, straight no chaser. You know, I had come from a different industry. You were the fairy godmother of that space even back then. And... Kathryn Finney: Crazy. Darlene Gillard Jones: You know, I did bring some levity and joy and we can have a good time, you know, and I feel like it was so important because of the important work that we were doing. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah, I mean, because at that time it was like, know, there was, we didn't know what we were doing. And we didn't know what we were doing, not because we weren't brilliant, but because literally there was no roadmap. were hacking together a couple of different systems, creating our minimal viable product out of like, we're gonna take from here, we're gonna take from here, we're gonna take from here, we're gonna put it together and see what fits, what sticks. And so I remember even, We traveled a lot during this time period. And I remember being in LA. I don't know if you remember this. We went to LA. We were working with American Express. And we were staying at the Sofa Tell. And NeNe Leakes was there. And NeNe Leakes, I would often see NeNe and her husband, who had since passed away, Greg, on airplanes leaving Atlanta. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: This is particularly when I moved to Atlanta and they would always be near me and Greg would always look at me because you know, when you're in business class, first class, there's not that many black people you see in there. So when you see another black person in business class, you're kind of like, you know, if something happens on this plane, I know where you at. Like we got each other, you know, you give each other the look, like I got you, you got me, people start popping off, you know, we got this. And so I remember being at the sofa tell and NeNe was there and You know, I Greg like came up to me and he asked me like, you know, in so many words, who are you? Because you're black and you're at the sofa. Tell are you part of I think she was there for some TV stuff, obviously. Like, are you TV person? I'm like, no, I'm just in tech. And they were like very fascinated. He was. He didn't give two shits about me. But like she was kind of like giving me a side eye, actually. But. You know, we have all these experiences, MC Hammer in Detroit. And I know that was a particularly hard thing for you, that event. MC Hammer was a really big supporter of Digital and Divided for a very long time and was very, very generous with his time with us and very supportive. And I would say of all the celebrities we've interacted with, he's probably the one who got what we were doing the most. and understood how hard it was, what we were doing. And I don't know if that's because he is from Silicon Valley. So he understood what we were trying to do and how we were trying to break in. But we had this partnership with the city of Detroit in which we brought MC Hammer. And we did like a little tour of all the Detroit sort of spaces with him. And it was crazy when you're with a real celebrity. So I flew with him from San Francisco. We sat next to each other. And everyone on the flight was like asking for his picture. They were taking pictures with him because he's still like an icon, right? And then we get to Detroit and we're walking down the street, we're in the hood and like, Hammer! Hammer! Darlene Gillard Jones: Which by the way, his name is legally MC Ham. Kathryn Finney: Can you talk about that? Like about you setting up his flight? Darlene Gillard Jones: I'm setting up his flight like hammer rice. You're come we're gonna do XYZ blah blah blah And so I just need your ID for your flight information you know, send me first name last name date of birth all of that and I'll give it to the travel agent and They send me MC hammer date of birth and I'm like no like His government name we need his government name with his government issued ID They were like, that is his name on his government issued ID. He is the iconic MC Hammer. I'm like, you know what? You better go ahead. I love it. I love it. But you're right, Catherine. He was very supportive and he was in Silicon Valley. He was early investors and an early investor in a lot of different things that you brought to my attention at the time. And so yeah, he understood it. He got it. And he made the conference when he was a guest there very special. And again, in Detroit, he turned the city out really when he came. And that was another highlight for us. You know, there were some lows. There were a lot of challenges, other people, other things. It was just things. was like everything was happening at one time, but we got through it. He was good about it. Everybody was good. I cried a little bit. and moved on. And a tornado on top of it. No light. Kathryn Finney: Yes, it was a tornado in the middle of that event. I mean, it was like, I think at some point in doing the work, I was just like, that tracks. I just started to say that. When it's like all these series of things, like, of course there's a tornado and of course the lights have gone out. Darlene Gillard Jones: You were very cool. You were definitely on that. I remember because you were very cool. And I was like, my gosh. But I tell you, Catherine, there were so many instances throughout the time that we worked together where a woman, someone who we had helped, who had heard me speak or heard you talk, or saw us do something. came up and said, you changed my life. Like, because you said this thing, you changed my life. I was at this thing and you did this thing and you changed my life. Because of the introduction that you made, you changed my life. And that really fueled me for so long. Because there were so many highs but so many lows, but that... You know, I care so much about people. I'm an empath. I care about people. I care about my impact on society. And to see that happening in real time, that I am actually having an impact on someone, just meant the world to me. Kathryn Finney: That was part of the joy of leadership, right? It's an honor for people to look to you for leadership. It's an honor to lead. It is. There's a lot that goes into leading, but it's an honor that people trust your vision and trust your direction enough to say, I'm in this with you. I trust that you're gonna lead us to the right space. And that's what you gave to me. We actually started way before Digital and Divide It. We started working together on the budget fashionista, which was my company that had before that I later sold. I want to go back to the BlogHer fashion show. so BlogHer was the first influencer network. And it was founded Darlene Gillard Jones: Mmm. Kathryn Finney: by Elisa Camajor-Page, Lisa Stone, and Jory DeJardis, and three amazing women startup founders who raised some of the early venture capital investment into a woman-led startup. And they built this platform for women bloggers at the time, which was the precursor to all the stuff that we have now, all the agencies and other things that we have now that manage influencer now. So these are the original influencers, like Pioneer Woman, who now is like, had I don't know how many seasons on her TV show. Myself, Heather, who founded, oh God, Doce Mom, who has since passed away. You just think of all the big sort of blogging women, they were a part of this network and they used to have the most. amazing conferences and I'll never forget the first blog or conference I went to where they had McDonald's come in and this is boss McDonald's came in and they did like this a whole table full of like hamburgers a whole table full of cheeseburgers and then they had Fry stations real fry stations where they have people scooping up the fries in the middle of this like big-ass ballroom and as a person who is just a fry girl, that was just like, this is boss. When you got McDonald's bringing all the fry people out, and we're gonna fry some fries right in the middle of this conference. And so, at the time I had sold my company and I went on to work with them as editor at large. And one of the things I was doing was building out their lifestyle vertical, focusing on fashion and beauty. And so, Darlene Gillard Jones: you Kathryn Finney: I was asked to do this fashion show in partnership with this website called 6PM, which was owned by Zappos. I'm not even sure if the website is still around, but it was Zappos' kind of discount partner. And it had all this fashion. And so we did this fashion show. It wasn't like, how many bloggers were there? 40? It was too many. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah, that was the number that came to mind. It had to be about 40. It felt like it for sure. Kathryn Finney: And so it's like, know who can help me do this. I'm gonna call Darlene. I called Darlene, I was like, do you wanna do this with me? And we proceeded to take, we had a suite. And remember we had to fight over that because people didn't understand fashion, they didn't understand the scale of what we were doing. Like, well, why do you need a suite? It's like, well, we've gotta like fit all of these bloggers, right? And these women are not real models. So we have to actually do a lot of work. and getting them comfortable with themselves and their bodies. This was 2012. So it wasn't a lot of body positivity at that point. And a lot of women, actually a few of the bloggers hadn't even shown their face. And subsequently now those bloggers that didn't show their face now they're really out there, which is really interesting. But the first time they actually showed their face to the community was during the blog, Her Fashion Show. And so we pulled something like close to a hundred thousand dollars worth of fashion. Darlene Gillard Jones: Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: And we put people who'd never saw themselves as models in like Diane von Furstenberg. And we really leaned on your connections and my connections, lot of your connections to get work or get items. I remember Waco, the underwear people sent this big old box of underwear, which was like amazing. Right? I remember we were telling people, get you some underwear. I mean, it was a massive box. Darlene Gillard Jones: I guess I'm gonna have some of those pieces. Kathryn Finney: It was a lot of draws, a lot of draws, a lot, a lot of draws. And I had those draws for a very long time too. Darlene Gillard Jones: Thank They definitely fit well. I never even, that was a big move for them because they got a customer after that for sure. Kathryn Finney: They gotta customer on them. I think they gotta customer on a lot of people from that. But it was 40 real women who, many of them never been public, that trusted us to put in fashion. I know Darlene, me to a lesser extent, because I was doing other stuff during the conference, but I remember Darlene was a therapist in many ways. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah, for sure. Kathryn Finney: I mean, cause we had some of the models really break down. That really, really break down because they were just like, I've never did this. And there was one model in particular who has cerebral palsy, was in a wheelchair. And I remember we dressed her in this like really cute animal printed Diane Von Furstenberg dress and a pair of Marc Jacobs shoes. At the time Marc Jacobs was like it. So the fact that we had those shoes was like, she said, you know what? I want to walk. I want to walk down the runway. I've always wanted to, it's been my lifelong dream to do this. And so we being the dramatic staging people that we are like, okay, here's how we're going to do it. We had somebody will her out. So everyone's like, cute. You know, like. very condescending. And I remember it was that one song, gosh, was it like Flowrider? what I feel. That the never, never, never, you know that one. And then it like pumps up, like comes up. then she, when the music starts to pump, she like gets up and pushes her like wheelchair away. And when I say everybody lost their shit, I, literally lost my shit when she did that. It was, I mean, I'm getting goosebumps just remembering that moment. And she started to walk that effing runway and was like, and everybody in that room was like, cause people were really deeply critical. I don't know if you knew this, people really were deeply critical of the fashion show. They were like, why are we doing that? We don't understand. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah. that didn't, in the end though, like you said, there was therapy sessions going on. There was so many women who even afterwards came and apologized and sent notes to just say that they had poo-pooed the idea of a fashion show, but didn't really understand the mental that came with it, you know? Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Darlene Gillard Jones: from showing yourself, from looking beautiful, from wearing something that you might have never thought that you could wear and looking beautiful, you know, and being confident. You know, it was a lot. It was a lot for them. And it was definitely in the end, it was, it was just chef's kiss. Kathryn Finney: That, I think her name was Loretta. When she did that, I would say that was one of the highlights of my professional life of like, man, this, that, of all the work, that moment where this woman was like, I am going to walk this runway. And I feel the best that I've ever felt. And shout out to the designers and the people who really sit behind us. Norma Kamali actually sent stuff separately. Darlene Gillard Jones: It was. Kathryn Finney: And shout out to her and her team because this woman got to live her dream. She got to live her dream. And it was just so powerful. And that sort of joy of like, damn, this was the hardest thing ever, but my God. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah, it was really special. It was really special. know, kudos to you for pulling me in, right? Like pulling together the right team. And then I think that sort of work, besides the work you were doing and what I was doing before, kind of led us to Digital Undivided in the way that we dealt with the women that we were working with, right? We had real women and real emotions and real things. And so we could help coach them through. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Darlene Gillard Jones: this startup experience, which you had, you know, mastered. Kathryn Finney: I wanna say that, but something like that. But yeah, I mean, think it was, you know, one of the joys that have come out of digitalundivided I would say definitely the Dooney Fund. And that was something I started to do any fun in the middle of the pandemic. I had this refund from a cruise that my family was set to go on. I still don't think that boat has left. I still think it's still there waiting for us. And we're supposed to go on this Alaska cruise, Alaskan cruise for my birthday. And COVID, if we remember, happened around the beginning of March. My birthday is at the beginning of April. So I got this refund and was feeling like I couldn't do anything. Right? Everyone I knew was okay. I was also scheduled to see my grandmother. I was going to go visit my grandmother, then go meet my family out in, in, Seattle and couldn't do that. And my grandmother, her name was Kathryn Hale I'm named after her. We all called her Dooney. Everyone called her Dooney. Even the postman called her Dooney. Everybody called her Dooney. And so I was like, you know what, let me do something like I this is money that I didn't expect to have and something that I do personally that a lot of people don't know about because I don't really talk about it. But whenever I get a bit of money, that I didn't expect to have. Like I didn't, it's not like a paycheck. It's not like something I knew was coming, not an invoice was paid, but like, wow, this is a windfall that the universe that God gave me. I always give away a percentage of it. I always give away at least 10 % of it because it's like, man, this is not something I expected to have. I had already budgeted for it and the universe is rewarding me in some sort of way. So let me be a gift to someone else. And so, I took this money and like, okay, let's do this. And what I didn't realize as a leader, how much my staff and the staff at Digital Invited was suffering too. During the pandemic, we were all feeling isolated and lonely and disconnected and kind of like, what are we going to do? We kind of had to sit with ourselves. And I said to the team, it's like, okay, I want to get this money out. We're going to do it frictionless. We're not going to ask for anything from people. Um, and they're like, bet we're in, it's like, you guys don't have to do this. This is not, this is outside of your job. You don't have to do this. It's a Catherine personal thing. I want, I want, know, there's no repercussions. If you say, no, you're busy. I know we're all struggling, but everyone's like, yeah, we want to do this. This gives us something to do. Like we want, and so we hacked together this crazy system in which we gave over $250,000 out in six weeks. And that. process was one of the things that have fundamentally had a massive impact on my life. The return on investment from that, because I didn't get any money back. That wasn't, it was a nonprofit, so it's a foundation. It's no money to come back to me. But the return was I, to this day, will give a speech. I'll be out somewhere and someone will say, you know, I'm a doony. I was giving a speech to a group of private equity dudes in Chicago. I mean, everybody there was like traditional white guy, private equity dudes with a couple of sprinkling of other people. I'm giving this speech and I'm talking about the Dooney Fund and what I built in trying to encourage these folks to like, you can do something. It is not hard to do something. You can do it, it's easy. And they're kind of like, you could see their eyes glassing over like, okay, this like. black chick is like lecturing me. You could see that they're kind of, you I'm like, okay, I'm losing them. So I wrap it up and it's a Q and A and a woman stands up in the audience and she said, hi, Catherine, I'm so glad that I get to tell you this in front of all these people, but I'm a doony. And when I say everybody was like, I mean, could hear them go, because it was like, wait a minute, she's talking about this in the theoretical, but like here is someone, who was directly impacted and she talked about how much the Dooney Fund meant to her at a time where it seemed like no one saw her. And I was like, you I'm trying not to cry in front of this group of like private equity people, because I really wanted to be like, thank you. But that gift of, I did something because I could and people often ask me, why do you do this? Why did you do it? Because why wouldn't I? If I could do it, why wouldn't I do it? Like, that's just the way I think. Why would I not do something that I could easily do? If I can easily help you, why would I not help you? It doesn't make it, I don't think transactional in that sort of way of like, I'm helping you because you can do this, this, this for me. It's, I can help you because I can help you, so I'm gonna help you. And that sort of joy of knowing that the work you're doing is is helping someone. And it doesn't have to be large scale. You don't have to give out a million dollars or whatever that we've given out so far with the Dooney Fund. But knowing that you, it's one person. Maybe with your business, you gave somebody an internship that sparked their joy, or maybe you sent them a book. Maybe you just gave them a few words of encouragement. Today, I talked to a friend who's very, very famous, very, very well known, and very, very, very, very very much on social media and everyone knows and loves. And she was like, I need some advice, Catherine. And I mean, and I'm like, I got it to give. I got some minutes for you, let's talk. And sometimes it's just even something like that. But I think making sure that you're building and you have people like yourself, Darlene, around is part of my success. You are a part of me being successful. your support and your love and your joy is a vital part of who I am. My ex-husband definitely was a vital part of helping me be successful. My mother, who's always there and willing, talk about somebody willing to be down. My mom was always willing to be down. So it's surrounding yourself with the people who can help you at the beginning. not help you in a sense of transactional, but like the people who really want to see you succeed. And sometimes as family members, sometimes it's not. Let's be real. Darlene Gillard Jones: That's right. That's right. It could be anyone. You know, it could be anyone for any reason. You know, we, know at Digital Undivided, you know, one of the things with the founders in the program, it was like, you know, who is on your personal advisory board that very well may be your babysitter, right? The person is always Johnny on the spot to watch your kids when you need to do this thing, you know, or it could be your best friend. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Darlene Gillard Jones: you know, who's an ear to listen, who's maybe outside of the space who can give you a different perspective, whatever that is, I think finding those people to help you start up, you know, is important. It's not always cash that will help you get started. It's having those people around you to lift you up and to give you the support you need. Kathryn Finney: And someone to bring some humor and levity to this. It's so easy when you're entrepreneur to get into your entrepreneurial shit. It's really easy to get into it. I mean, for me, I always talk about how my son's on my advisory board. You know, one time I was just really upset with one of our founders in our portfolio that we invested in who had just really messed up, really, really messed up. And I was really upset. And my son's... room is near my office. And so I hear him singing a song about toilet people, people who live in his toilet. And he was like maybe six or seven at that point. And I'm hearing this song. I'm like really mad, right? I'm upset. I'm stressed. I'm angry. But then I hear this lyrics about toilet people and you know, it really is hard to be angry. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: when you have a six year old singing about toilet people. And like, wasn't just singing. I mean, he was like doing like runs, like, I mean, he was like, he was like from his gut, like he was pulling for him his diaphragm, like he had been trained in a church choir. Like, and I was like, you know, this puts it on perspective. And I just couldn't help. I just started laughing so hard because it was just so. Darlene Gillard Jones: you Right. Kathryn Finney: funny and it just put everything in perspective. so having things and people that bring you joy, don't ever let go of the things that bring you joy. If you don't know what brings you joy, start to figure that out. Like write it down. Like these are the things that bring me joy. Taking a walk, planting flowers, hanging with this person. You know, that's so important when you're building as an entrepreneur to make sure you understand that because you're need to pull from those joy reservoirs. when you're building, you're gonna need, is it like traveling brings me joy? Okay, so I know at the end of every big project, I need to schedule a trip for myself to celebrate or, you know, in the smaller version, chocolate chip cookies brings me joy. Darlene Gillard Jones: dance to knicker bar at the end of every big knicker bar, whatever that is. And we were talking about this before we didn't record, when we weren't recording, but when we did record, we were supposed to. But just the small wins, acknowledging and sitting back. Kathryn Finney: Ooh, a good snicker, ooh! before we didn't record. Darlene Gillard Jones: taking your flowers in, acknowledging the small wins and the big wins. As women, a lot of times we are playing it down and playing the back seat and just, no, it's not a big deal, but it's a big deal. You make these accomplishments big or small. And that's right, get your flowers. Kathryn Finney: Get your flowers, smell your flowers, know, accept your flowers. You deserve to be celebrated. You deserve to be celebrated and you deserve to have your wind celebrated and who you are as a person celebrated and surround yourself with people who celebrate you. That is the lesson I wish I would have learned many, many years ago. If people are not celebrating you, they don't need to be around you. And also if people want to be you, you need to not have them around you. You cannot train people to be you. And that's always been a thing with me. And people always wonder why you and I are so close. Say, because Darlene doesn't want to be me. She doesn't. Darlene is Darlene. Darlene is very secure in who she is as a person and a very happy in who she is in a person. She doesn't want or have any desire to be Catherine Finney. And it's like, that's why we were. Darlene Gillard Jones: huh. Kathryn Finney: Charmaine, who's my long-term chief of staff and now my bikini stylist. She had no desire. She was very comfortable in who she is in her life and what she's doing. She's like, I don't need to be Catherine. It doesn't mean that she doesn't wanna be successful. That's not the case. You are successful, Charmaine is successful, but it's like, I don't wanna be... I don't want to be Catherine. And the one thing I will also say to founders as you begin your journey in entrepreneurship, you cannot build with people who want to be you. And that's really, really hard. If they want to be you and have your life and have whatever status that you have, you're not going to be able to build because they're going to be too busy trying to see what you're doing that they can create themselves that you're not going to be able to build together here. And most people don't understand. because I think we're in this place where everyone is validated through social media. So everyone thinks that they're important. And everyone is important to someone, but not everyone is important to everyone, which is what I tell my son. You are incredibly important to me. You're the number one person to me. You are number one. You are not number one to everybody else. It's like, you gotta know that, right? So move accordingly. Know that to mommy and daddy and to grandma, you are like, Darlene Gillard Jones: and Thank Kathryn Finney: You, you sir, are number one. There is no one above you in my book, but not in everybody else's book, right? You might be down the list a little bit. And so. Darlene Gillard Jones: That takes discernment. People need to really sit back and pay attention and not just do things for the wrong reasons, not just partner with people for the wrong reasons. Really look at someone who can bring value to what it is that you're doing before you bring them into your cipher. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. mean, ask yourself, does this person want to build with me or do they want to build against me? Like, do they really want to build with me? And I think that's a really important thing because again, it's going to be these hard parts. And if you're building together, then there's, there's joy that you can pull from that. There's these episodes, these fun things, these, you know, blizzards in North Carolina. you know, you or, you know, reality show folks in Beverly Hills that you can draw from when you're when you're doing this. And then also one of the things too, and we talk about this in the episode about exits is also knowing when it's time to transition. And I remember, you know, I wanted to leave Digital and Divided and you definitely wanted to leave Digital and Divided and it was like, OK, how do we honor Darlene? Because she did the work and she deserves to be honored for her work. And how do we give her that space to be able to transition out and understanding that and then maintaining relationships afterwards because yes, this person leaves, but they need to move on. Not everyone needs to be everywhere for the whole entire lifetime. Not everything's a lifetime, right? And so there's the next thing that people wanna move on to and how do you honor that? And I think we did a really good job at Digital Nafide it when you you left. Darlene Gillard Jones: Yeah, I think so too. mean, was right. It was COVID. Who knew that COVID was coming around the corner? But yeah, I felt it. I felt it and I definitely appreciated. And for me, relationships have been the cornerstone of my success. I mean, every opportunity that I've had, everything that I'm able to bring to the table is based. on relationships that I've built and kept and maintained and cultivated over the years. And so I would say that too is just very important for any founder, know, tap into those relationships that you have, right? The really strong, solid ones and cultivate them. Don't just call on people, you know, every time you need something, right? You have to just cultivate relationships. And so I've been able to build, you know, again, all the things that I've ever done because of that. Kathryn Finney: I think that's an amazing point to end on. Darlene, Darlene Giller-Jones has proved that leadership doesn't have to be cold or transactional. It can be joyful, it can be purposeful, and it can be rooted in deep belief in the people you build with. If today's episode resonated with you, make sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss another conversation like this. And there will be more conversations with Darlene because she's one of my best friends. Darlene Gillard Jones: Thank you. Kathryn Finney: And if you're building your own dream team or learning how to lead from the front, leave us a review and share this episode with someone else on the journey. Because leadership isn't doing it alone, it's about doing it together. Until next time, keep leading, keep building, and keep building the damn thing. Thank you.