From Corporate Burnout to Finding Your Purpose: How to Build a Life You Actually Love

Francesca Hogi: Hi, Catherine. Thank you for having me. And that was an amazing introduction. I mean, I would be impressed, but I already know you, so I'm not surprised. Kathryn Finney: thank you. Well, you're an amazing person. You're amazing, amazing person. I'm so excited to talk with you for listeners. Fran is a dear, dear friend. We met via the TED community and she has really skyrocketed in the relationship expert community. Her TED talk is very, very popular. And if you haven't had a chance, please go in and search for it. In it, she talks about this fairy tale industrial complex, which is really super interesting, especially as a business entrepreneur podcast, entrepreneurship focused podcast to talk about the business aspects of love. And can you explain a little bit more about the fairy tale industrial complex, what that is and how that's been turned into a very powerful business? Francesca Hogi: Yeah, you know, it's so interesting that I think the fairy tale industrial complex is one of those things that you might not think about it, but then once you hear about it, you kind of see it everywhere. But essentially, it is the intersection of commerce and romantic love. right, and selling romantic love. And there's really a lot of layers to it. There are the businesses that market to you in terms of, if you own this thing, or you look this way, or you're this sexy, or you're this handsome, then you'll be romantically desirable. That's sort of one way that it operates. It also operates through storytelling. So whether it's movies, fairy tales, love stories, love songs, just a lot of... And I'm not knocking all of this, by the way. I'm just pointing out that... Listen, we love a good love song. think that where it gets tricky, and I don't think I ever would have discovered this if not for the fact that... Kathryn Finney: Yeah, because what's, I mean, we all like a good love song, right? Yeah. Francesca Hogi: 12 years ago, it became my bill paying job to help people with romantic love and specifically help single people who didn't want to be single. And realizing how many people, no matter how accomplished, no matter how educated they were, they still had so many fantasy notions about romantic love that aren't how love actually works. And they're actually holding them back and preventing them from having the relationship that they want. So I started noticing this of like, wow, there's so many people who are really living inside this fairy tale and they're projecting everything onto the other person and it's your job to make me happy and when I meet the right person then everything will be amazing and I'll just live happily ever after and I'll never have to put any effort and how, it's like all of this messaging that we get, it really does seep into so many people's actual approach to romantic love in unhelpful ways. But then I think kind of the classic example of the fairy tale industrial complex is the tradition, I say tradition in quotes, of the diamond engagement ring, which was really just a marketing campaign that was invented by an advertising exec hired by De Beers in the 1940s because De Beers had lots and lots of diamonds and people weren't buying them because. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: diamonds were not like a popular commodity at that time. And they're like, how are we gonna sell all these diamonds? And there was a woman actually advertising executive who came up with this idea of selling diamond engagement rings. And she came up with this campaign, A Diamond is Forever. one of the most powerful campaigns and slogans of all time, right? Because it created this entire industry. And then De Beers gave all the movie studios diamonds to put in their films and to feature on their stars and just to really submit this idea of in the public imagination of diamonds as being the ultimate expression of romantic love. And now why does this matter? It matters because there are then people fast forward to today who have this idea that this is some grand you know centuries old tradition that they're honoring and that if they can't afford to spend three months salary on a ring then they can't marry the person they love or if the person you love can't afford to buy you the ring you want then you can't marry them and if you start to realize the ways in which we're making real-world decisions about our relationships based on marketing you can see how it can get a little murky. So we have to just find that balance of enjoying the fantasy, you know, taking what works for us. I'm not knocking diamond rings, but also to understand where it comes from. And that actual love and connection is more powerful than anything that you're marketed. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, because diamonds, as you stated, diamonds are actually in abundance. It's actually a controlled market. There's other stones that we overlook that are actually more precious. And so that kind of leads into at the beginning of the book, you talk a little bit about romantic flow. And I'm going to read a quote from your book because I so love this. I like underlined it, highlighted it, underlined it, and highlighted it again. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Francesca Hogi: Yep. Kathryn Finney: And its romantic flow lies in the ability to treat your intention for true love as a destination you've predetermined in your life's journey. And so tell me a little bit more about this idea of romantic flow and being really intentional with it. And then also a little bit about the opposite of it, which is romantic struggle. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's a really great parallel to be drawn here in entrepreneurship, actually, because if you think about how many people want to be entrepreneurs, and it's something that they dream about and they fantasize about it, one day I'm going to have this great business, one day I'm going to have this great impact. But if they're feeling very disempowered around that, then are they actually taking the steps to make it happen? Are they being intentional or are they getting sort of stuck in the desire phase without that catalyzing into action, determination, really seeing this as a decision, like, okay, I'm gonna build the damn thing. Like, I'm going to figure this out, even though I don't know every step. I don't know how it's all gonna work, but I still know in my heart this is something that I'm called to do. And so you see, and I don't have to tell you this, the people who are successful are entrepreneurs are the ones who really do hold that intention. They're not just going through the motions every day and going like, gosh, I hope I get lucky and this business is successful. No, they're doing their part. And with romantic love, there's so many people who have that same approach where... their heart is calling them to have that partnership. They dream about it. They fantasize about it. It's the strong, strong desire within them, but they don't feel either ready to pursue it. They don't know how to pursue it. It feels like something that's outside of themselves and they have to wish and hope to get lucky. And what I really want to empower people to do is to decide like, wait, do you want a romantic partnership or not? A healthy one, let's say, because it's not just about being in a relationship for being in a sake of being in a relationship. Kathryn Finney: Yes. Francesca Hogi: Do I want a fulfilling healthy romantic partnership? Yes or no? And if I do, okay, then that's what I'm going to have. I don't know who it's going to be with. I don't know how I'm going to meet them, but this is a decision that I've made for myself. And now I get to focus on what do I need to do? Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: to make sure that that's the direction that I'm moving in and that I'm able to recognize the right people when they show up. And I know how to show up myself as the right version of me, right? The true openhearted version of me. And so there's so many people who, despite that burning desire for romantic partnership, they do not actually activate the intention. They stay in that wishing and hoping to get lucky phase. And, you know, going back to this idea of romantic flow, you're not, you're unlikely, I shouldn't say not because listen, I'm not in charge of the universe here, anything is possible. But in my professional and personal experience, you are unlikely to enter into a state of romantic flow. And what I mean by that is where things are unfolding. I mean, you know this, Catherine, as somebody who has, I mean, you've manifested so many things in your life, but you've built businesses. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: and you know how you start taking those steps and then things start happening, right? You start getting opportunities, you start getting invitations, you start getting new ideas, start, synchronicity starts to align and as long as you're staying true to that intention and you're doing your part, it just grows and grows and grows. And that's really, this is the same thing with romantic flow. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: the synchronicities will start to align. Things will start to make more sense. Suddenly it'd be like, my God, I never thought I could have met somebody in this place, but I just did, right? But without the intention, it's a really difficult place to access. Kathryn Finney: You are so right. I mean, just think, you know, I'm a divorcee and, you know, dating is different than when I was married or when I was dating my ex-husband. And my most recent partner, I met just out in the wild, which I know is kind of like, you know. But as an entrepreneur, it's always been the time, right? And so we often drift to the apps when you're an entrepreneur and you're in dating and you're in this space just because of time, right? The apps you can do at any time of night, any time of day, you can do it on the airplane. can, you know, it's a convenience. It's much more convenient than having to actually go out and make yourself open. And in the book, you talk a lot about like how to sort of position yourself. I don't know, for lack of a better word. to be able to attract the love that you want. you do it through sort of, the book is really interesting. It's in four sort of sets, right? That you've sort of mindset, heart set, soul set, and skill set. And each of those sets kind of give the reader instructions on how to sort of go through this process to find true love. Can you talk a little bit about each set real quickly? Francesca Hogi: Yes, for sure. So, you know, the title of the book is How to Find True Love, right? So part one is really step one in this finding true love process, which is to think bigger about love. Many of us are conditioned to have a real scarcity mindset around romantic love. Wait, do want me to pause just because? OK, I don't know, because the siren just seems so loud, but OK. Kathryn Finney: No, you can keep talking. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, they should be able to, because you're in a separate track from me. So if worse comes to worse, they'll cut the interview. They'll cut the part. But yeah, you're in New York. So it's like it is what it is. I mean, at this point. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Okay, it seems I've stopped. Okay, I know, I know. Okay. So the first step is mindset. And this is about thinking bigger about love. So this is about centering love in your life in a more holistic way, rather than thinking that romantic love is in this special category that's on a pedestal somewhere and you've got to... you know, search high and low to find it, but to really see yourself as the conduit of love that you are, you know, to escape the programming of that fairy tale industrial complex, to think, just to expand your sense of romantic possibility. Like, as you said, you you met your partner just living your life. That is something that still happens. I met my partner that way too, and I met my ex that way too. And that's something that still happens in the age of dating apps, but so many people feel like a dating app is their only portal to meeting someone. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: You know what I think the dating apps do too? You know, and as entrepreneurs and business owners and CEOs, we like control. And I think what happens with the apps is that you do have some semblance of control, right? Or at least you think you have some control over your interactions with people because they may not have your real phone number. So you can manage the interactions through the app. You can determine when you want to talk with them or when you don't want to talk with them. Francesca Hogi: Hahaha Kathryn Finney: If you decide that you don't want to see them, it's very easy to ghost people, even though it's horrible and wrong, but it's very easy to put in the bare minimum. So not only do you have control over interactions, or at least you think you do, you also don't have to expend much emotional effort. And for that, think for a lot of people, particularly busy people, people who are doing other things, the apps become very, very attractive. of, right, that you can do that. It's much harder to go out and put yourself in a position to either you approach the person or have someone approach you, right? That's kind of nerve wracking. You don't know how to do that. Even though us old heads, that is the way we did it. That was it done. There was no other option. You do it scared. But it's this sense of control. And so how does going through this process, these steps, Francesca Hogi: Right, there was no other option. You're gonna do it scared. Kathryn Finney: help you kind of let go of some of that control. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Well, I think number one, and this is just my personal perspective on this, is honestly just the sense of futility, right? Just exposing the futility of thinking that you can control this process and that this process is meant to be something that is controlled, right? So like in the mindset piece of the book, you know, one of the things that I'm really introducing is this idea that we are all on a lifelong love journey and it is here to teach us how to be more loving towards ourselves, towards other people. So we're so busy looking for all these shortcuts so we don't have to be uncomfortable, so we don't have to grow, so we don't have to be vulnerable, so we don't have to risk having our feelings hurt, we don't have to risk hurting someone else's feeling because that's kind of like the whole point you know and I really think the more that people can embrace dating as a process that is teaching you really valuable skills, that it's not something to just rush through as quickly as possible and get into a relationship, but no, it's actually like, okay, what am I learning? How am I growing through this process? What am I learning about my self-worth? What am I learning about discernment? What am I learning about communication? What am I learning about my true relationship needs? And if you can... see the purpose of what you're going through. And that's why I start with sort of logically breaking it down for people. Then it just relieves this mental burden of feeling like I'm supposed to have this all figured out and this perfect person is just supposed to land in my lap with a bow on it. And I haven't had to do anything. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah, think it's, you know, it's hard. And I also think with a lot of entrepreneurs, especially those that I've invested in, I've had conversations with about sort of what's going on in your personal life, because that does impact your business. I think people have a tendency to want to separate business from personal life. we, you know, that was maybe what you could do back, you know, Francesca Hogi: Yes. Kathryn Finney: I'm gonna say the 90s, because I can't believe the 90s were 30 years ago, over 30 years ago. maybe you could do that, know, pre-millennial. could, yeah, I don't know if that is so true either. But I think there's this belief that you could have like sort of these separate spaces and this concept of, you know, the third space, you could have home, you could have work, and then you have the spaces where you can congregate with community and interact with people, church. Francesca Hogi: you Francesca Hogi: I don't know that you could. Kathryn Finney: social groups, the team that you play on, things like that. And that's not the case anymore. Everything has been kind of sort of collapsed in together. And so I think for entrepreneurs, think, a lot of us think love is just another burden. Like another thing I have to think about versus how love, especially true love, and especially as you define it in the book, can help you be a better business owner. Francesca Hogi: Mmm... Mm-hmm... Kathryn Finney: can help you be a better CEO, can help you be a better person, period. And that it can be additive, right? That love can be additive to your life. It is not a distraction. That is something you hear a lot in the business community, that love is like a distraction. True love isn't. It gives you strength, it gives you power, it gives you energy to do what you, inspiration, something for you to look forward to. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Yes, gives you inspiration. Yeah. Kathryn Finney: all of those sort of things. so, you know, one of the things that reading your book that really struck me was you talk about Gay Hendrix and his book, The Big Leap and this sort of upper limit problem. I hadn't thought about the upper limit problem in a really long time, maybe in 10 or 15 years. And I was really pleased to see it in the book. And it's like, you know, this idea that we put a false ceiling on how much happiness. Francesca Hogi: You Kathryn Finney: we can experience. And I think we do it in a lot of things in our lives, not just happiness of like, this isn't much money, I will never make more than this amount of money. This is, you know, this basically our inability to think of possibilities, right? And when you're an entrepreneur and you're building a business, it's all about thinking about possibilities. you know, wanted to get your thoughts on like the upper limit problem. And how does that limit the possibility of love? Francesca Hogi: Yeah, mean, I so love this concept and like shout out to Gay Hendrix for this amazing book, The Big Leap, which I have like given and recommended to so many people. I'm like, this is gonna explain so much. But you know, it absolutely works the same way. I think a really important thing that I'm trying to convey in the book is that, Kathryn Finney: Hey. Francesca Hogi: And psychologists are conveying this all the time in lots of different ways. I'm not a psychologist. I'm a coach. This is all very practical. This is what I've learned from working with people. Which is that we want to be right more than we want to be happy. Okay? We want to be right more than we want to be happy. Kathryn Finney: Ooh, say that again. Kathryn Finney: Mm. Francesca Hogi: Right? So if all you've ever known is you make X amount of money and then if, that's the only sense of possibility that you have, then literally staying at that level of income is you making yourself right. It's making yourself right about how much money you can make. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. We have to respect. Kathryn Finney: self-fulfilling prophecy. Francesca Hogi: our subconscious genius. We are so, so, so good. Like we think, I think this is, this is like one of the biggest problems that we face as humans is that we're, our society is so, is so hell bent on telling us that everything is about the mind and being logical. And, you know, that's, that's what we're, we're so focused on, but it's like, you know, 90 % of what you were thinking and feeling, you don't even, you're not even aware of it consciously. Kathryn Finney: Mmm, yeah, yeah. Francesca Hogi: So if you think that you can only make all of your decisions from your mind and control the universe from your mind, realizing that there's all these other things that you, ways that you were showing up that you're not even aware of, then you're really setting yourself up for a lot of frustration. So what I love about this concept of the upper limit problem is like, you can just start to see the sneaky ways in which it's like, yeah, I do kind of. sabotage myself and my business. And by the way, I've been an entrepreneur for the last 12 years. So I know this very well from an entrepreneurial perspective, right? Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Everything is sailing, things are starting to move, and then you're like find yourself dropping the ball on something that you're like, why did I drop the ball on that? Or you find yourself, you know, saying no to an opportunity that you're like, why did I say no? Or saying yes to something that you're like, this is such a waste of my time, why did I do this? Right? And then you start to realize, wait, maybe there's little something more going on here, right? Maybe there's a little, maybe I don't want to be as visible as I actually need to be to be successful in this endeavor, to put myself out there. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: in this way. And romantic love works the same way. I mean, I had a book event last week and there were... three different women in the audience who asked a question about meeting men. And I asked them, and I said, okay, I was like, this is great. I asked all three of them, I said, because we were at TED, we were at the TED conference in Vancouver, and I said, okay, listen, you're at TED, there's 1,600 curious, amazing, fascinating people here. So if you were going through the conference today, if you saw somebody who looked interesting, intriguing, attractive to you, what would you do? Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: One of them said, I would run the other way. One of them said, that actually happened to me yesterday, and I got so freaked out that I went into super business mode. So she friend zoned herself. And the third one said that she would be so in her head about how there's no way this guy is actually interested in her that she would just freeze and not do anything. And so before I made them answer that question, Kathryn Finney: gosh. Francesca Hogi: they thought that they weren't meeting men because there were no men to meet. Right? Kathryn Finney: They're men, they're there, And you know, I do think social media has really created a certain space. know, it's, if you go on social media and you look at any of the dating stuff, it is very much like rules, right, for women. It's, you know, he has to make at least 250. And I remember, Francesca Hogi: Ugh, I know, I hate it. You Kathryn Finney: My team, I had taken my team, we had went to a retreat and the team was mostly women, all sorts of ages, number who were single. And I remember one of our team members was saying like, you he has to make 250, right? He has to make 250. And she was African-American, so she wanted to be African-American. You talk about this in your book too, but she wanted him to be African-American. had to make 250. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: She wanted them to be somewhere around the Chicago area, she wouldn't, because we're based in Chicago and she wouldn't have to travel. And so what I did was we sat down, that's a whole group of us, and got a piece of paper and we did the math of how many single, straight, available black men making over 250,000. Francesca Hogi: Hahaha Francesca Hogi: you Kathryn Finney: that lived in the Chicago metropolitan area. And those of you who are international, Chicago is the third largest city in the United States or metropolitan area is the third largest city. So it's, you know, I think it's like 20 or 30 million people in the sort of, well, maybe not 20 and 30, but like a good eight to 10 million in sort of the larger Chicago metropolitan area. If you include Milwaukee in there, you get kind of big. And so the number we came up with, it was something like, 2000 available black men. Chicago has a population of over 3 million people. And that's like 2000, assuming that they weren't dating somebody. Like it was, making the assumption that these 2000 are not dating someone and they want to date people, right? And they're good people. We haven't even gotten into that. They're into you. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, and they're good people and they have good character and they're into you and you're into them. Kathryn Finney: And the pool of women that they could choose from was something like over a million. Cause it's all the women between the ages of let's say 22 to 50, know, all races, all of that. it's like you, you, there's a million and then like your criteria is like 2000. And more importantly, being, I'm friends with a number of the 2000. And I can tell you, they know there's only 2000 of them too. So they understand scarcity in terms of the market for that. And so, you know, it's like social media has really created this space, right? It's bought into the fairy tale industrial complex. There's whole content farms that are created based upon this complex. And how do you... You know, as a person out here in these streets dating, how do you navigate around the impact of social media? How do you go past your upper limit problem, right? How do you expand this concept of who you can date and who you should date past what social media and the marketing folks at De Beers tells you you're supposed to have? Francesca Hogi: Yeah, yeah. Francesca Hogi: Mm-hmm. Francesca Hogi: I have so much to say about this. mean, I say, first of all, I would encourage people to stop engaging in content around romantic love that disempowers you or makes you feel a greater sense of scarcity around it. because it would sort of be like in entrepreneurship, if you were starting a business, you're building a business and all of the content that you're creating is about people who struggle with building a business and are failing at business and how hard it is. You know what I'm saying? it's like, you're not really like, you're focusing, your attention is valuable. So where you're focusing your attention is important, right? So, because when it comes to all of those numbers and those statistics, yeah, I mean, Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: I say this in the book, like love is abundant. Love is the most abundant force in the universe. Men who are six foot two who make $250,000 who are single in your city are not the most abundant in the universe, right? But also to think about what, well, first of all, Kathryn Finney: No, they're not. No, they're not. Francesca Hogi: And I say this about anybody. I know we're picking on some people, and I hope nobody feels offended. But whatever that criteria is that you have, and I tell people, I'm like, write the list. You can have 1,000 things on the list. Get it all out, right? But no, first of all, you need to prioritize, because all 1,000 things is not a human. That's a unicorn. But also, just make sure for each of those things, you are asking yourself why. Why is this important? Kathryn Finney: You Francesca Hogi: What does this have to do with the relationship that we will co-create? So we'll take an example of $250,000. You're right. This is like the new number that people, I think it used to be 100,000 20 years ago. Like was just, they just wanted somebody with six figures and now inflation. now they're like, okay, 250, right? And, if you ask most people, why that number? They'd be like, well that means that he's successful. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, and then inflation. Francesca Hogi: He's ambitious. won't be competitive with me. He'll be supportive of my career. These are all assumptions. Who told you that a man making $250,000 equals any of those things? Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: You're right, because you know what, I often find that people who use that number don't make 250 themselves. it's like a fantasy of like what you think a millionaire does, right? It's a fantasy. Francesca Hogi: It is a lot of it is that yeah, a lot of that is is totally that fantasy and that's where that social media comes in It's like if he makes this then we get to have this kind of trip and I get to post these kind of pictures and then I you know It's like it's all of that the pic I mean the pic the hashtag relationship goals is like my least favorite hashtag because I'm like it's just corrupting people's idea of what Relationships are about are supposed to look like right and how many people? Kathryn Finney: Yes, the pictures. The pictures. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, it's like if I get the picture, it doesn't it didn't happen if you don't have a picture. Francesca Hogi: Right, exactly. So how many people are in these picture perfect relationships, but the actual life inside that relationship is actually miserable, but you look great together on social media. So I always encourage people, so you're asking those questions, just really get curious, like literally everything on that list and say, okay, so I guess what I really care about is somebody who is ambitious. I care about somebody who is confident in his own career and his own success. can be supportive of me and my success, right? We can lift each other up and they're not going to, like, those are the core things that you actually need. You're assuming that that person making a certain amount of money is going to equal what your actual need is, but it's not, trust me, right? And it's all the things on the list you can do that with, really. Kathryn Finney: No. And you know what's in? And you know what's interesting with the younger women I mentor and we've had conversations about relationships. I also advise them, said, you know, don't look at salary. If you want to know, if financial security is really important to you, and I understand for some of us it's very, important. So I have no judgment on that. But I if you want to look for whether or not someone's secure, you need to look at their assets. You need to look at what they own and then what they owe. What's their relationship with money? Because they may only make 50 or 60 thousand dollars a year, but they may own their home, right? They may drive, I don't know what people consider it's like a Hugo's or they still around, like whatever, like a Pinto. They might drive a Pinto. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. You need to look at their relationship with money. Yeah. Francesca Hogi: No ca- Francesca Hogi: Nobody drives a pinto, they all exploded. Kathryn Finney: But like, know, they might drive a pinto, but they might have a substantial amount in their 401k because maybe cars are not important to them. Maybe that's not something that they focus on. And so when I talk to young women, I'm like, look at their assets. Like, I don't care how much money you make because you can have a high salary. You can spend a ton of that on taxes. You have no deductions. you're just giving the money away. However, if you're a business owner and you're making a fraction of that, but you own the company and you're passing through a lot of your expenses through the company, but you actually probably have more money than the person who's maybe seems like they're making a lot of money. so even with my current partner, it's not somebody I would have expected. He's a police officer who would have thunk. Francesca Hogi: Hehehehehe Kathryn Finney: Anyone who knows me knows that that's kind of, know, people have met him, they're like, okay. But I think it goes back to this discussion that we're having about, you know, the upper limit and increasing your sort of possibilities and not focusing on just like one type of person. And I think that's really important that Francesca Hogi: You Francesca Hogi: Yes. Kathryn Finney: I'm not saying that you have to be in VC or be a CEO at a tech company or anything like that. I actually prefer people who aren't because I like people who doing things that are different. But if I had that, I would have the same problem that my mentees have, right? Of there only being like two black men and then maybe 10 of all the other men together, maybe 10 men, period, regardless of race, color, or height that could possibly date. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: And so keeping this idea of like expanding your upper limit, not even having an upper limit and keeping it open, I think it's so important. I wanted to get your thoughts on this idea that Viola Davis shared, and you've probably heard about it, how she wrote a letter about what she wanted in her partner, who's now her husband, and how she kind of manifests that. And is that something that you suggest that people do is to kind of write a little letter of like, here's what my love is gonna be and what they're gonna sort of, yeah. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, yeah, I do love, I call this a love vision, right? And I think it's a really powerful practice. The problem is that most people are doing their visioning from their minds. So they think this is an opportunity to quote, build the perfect person. Kathryn Finney: Mmm. Francesca Hogi: And that is not how I see it. see it as the fact that you have a calling in your heart to have a certain type of relationship is not, it's not just you coming up with a random wish. I believe that that means that it is available to you. Right? So. Kathryn Finney: Mm, yeah. Because in the book, talk about coming from, when you talk about the love vision, you talk about coming from a place of more the emotional place versus, which I think is so important. When I was writing my letter, because I wrote a letter, because I love Viola Davis, and I'm like, I'm going to try this. Why not? What do have to lose? And it's been refined over the years as. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Yes. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: more relationships I've gotten into. I've like used like those relationships to sort of refine more of what I want. And I was reading it recently and I think it doesn't have anything about height, weight, race. There is something financial, but it's only one small thing. And that's just because the nature of just my lifestyle and like who I am, this person does have to have some sort of income else is going to be really difficult for them for us to do things together. I'm not impossible, but it will be difficult. But everything else is about how I want to feel with them. How do they make me feel? Do they love their children? Are they good to my child? All of these sort of things that indicate whether or not we will be compatible. Do they have faith? Are they someone who will go to church? They don't have to be church people, but will they Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: Will they go to a church? I dated someone who was an atheist and I was like, it's just not gonna work. Because my faith is such a central part of who I am, especially as a woman of color. It's like, I've gotta believe in something bigger else, you know. And so, but those sort of things when you're writing this vision, I think, and you talk about it, really centering like, how do you wanna feel with this person? what are the things that are Francesca Hogi: Mmm. Francesca Hogi: Yes. Yeah. Kathryn Finney: to you, not the money, not where they were, because that doesn't really matter. You can lose your job tomorrow. Google just laid off a bunch of people. Francesca Hogi: No. Yes. At the end of the day, when the two of you are home together, when you are living your life together, you're making decisions together, you are all of the things, you are supporting each other through difficult times, through great times, through showing up for each other, through all, so many things that we focus on don't matter. So I love that your list is really about what it means. one way that I, because I also have a list that it's a note in my phone that I made probably 10 years ago. Kathryn Finney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Francesca Hogi: And my ex, by the way, was everything on the list except for one thing. And I kind of talked myself out of it. I was like, OK, it's not that important. I got a lot, right? But anyway, by my current partner, I was like, my god, I really got everything I asked for. I literally, I got everything I asked for. one way that I ask people to, or I suggest that people approach this visioning process, is imagine that you met somebody who you're super attracted to them. And on paper, they kind of check all the boxes that you've always been like, OK, Kathryn Finney: He's everything. Is he everything? Yeah. Francesca Hogi: that's what I want. Then what? Because you would still care what it was like to live with this person. You would still care what you feel like when you're with this person, when you're being intimate with this person, when you're supporting each other through hard times, when you're having good times, when you're traveling, when you're raising a family, when you're making decisions. Like you still care, right, about what it feels like. So what are those things? And I believe that those things are the things that are really showing up to show us like, okay, this is what is available to me. So now it's just my job to focus on those things and not to worry because the universe is not gonna give you somebody who fulfills all of these like core heart centered needs and wants of yours that you're not attracted to. Like, don't worry about that. You know what I mean? Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think everyone's worried about this sort of instant chemistry, right? Like of, they wanted to be instant. Right, like, that's a fairy tale. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, they do. Well, that's the fairy tale. This is again, this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say like, I realized when I started doing this work versus a matchmaker, I went to matchmaking school 12 years ago, realizing how many people are, it's like they, what they're, the way they're expecting their relationship to unfold is like a romantic comedy. It's like a fairy tale. It's like they want to just instantly see each other, lightning. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: rainbows, music playing, and then that's it. That's the one true love and they live happily ever after. And the thing is, sometimes it's pretty instant. I mean, it was pretty instant with my partner. I mean, we did say I love you after three days, but we also, to be fair. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. I mean, sometimes you know you know, right? Sometimes you know you know. Francesca Hogi: But you know, you know, and it was completely a feeling and it was completely energy. And it wasn't something that either one of us was expecting or seeking out. And we also said it without attachment. It was just like, I just need to let you know I love you. It's like, yeah, I need to let you know I love you too. And we're going to surrender to what is going to unfold. And so it all unfolded that now we are together. But I think that this idea that you have to know instantly and if you don't, and people tell me this all the time. They're like, I know when I know. And I'm like, OK, so tell me about all the times you've known Kathryn Finney: you Francesca Hogi: before. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, right, because there's a lot of times we've known before. How did that go? That didn't, I mean. Francesca Hogi: Right? How did that go? So are you willing, right, to consider the possibility that you're actually a co-creator of chemistry? And sometimes, and this is, you know, one of the things I talk so much about in the book is like this idea of self-compassionate curiosity, because we need to be kind to ourselves as we're understanding our choices, right? This is how we like expand that upper limit. Is by like starting to say okay. Well, you know what? know that I actually have a pattern of only being attracted to people who devalue my opinion or take advantage of me or who cheat or who you know what everybody has their pattern right who has a drinking problem who has this who has that right and so if you can get curious about that and recognize the amazing subconscious genius within you that is somehow Drawing you to those people and you to them then you will start taking your instant chemistry less seriously. Right? And Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah. Francesca Hogi: And also start to notice that as you start to not act on it all the time, be like, you know, not take it as a, as a green light when it's actually in retrospect, at least been a yellow flag, if not a red one. then you could start to, you'll, you'll notice that your attraction does start to change. So who you're attracted to changes as you do as you grow, as you mature, you're attracted to different kinds of people and different kinds of people are attracted to you. This is the romantic energy and the romantic flow that I'm talking about, especially in the soul set part of the book. I didn't finish doing the parts of the book. But that's just so important to understand, like, wait a second. And it's the same thing in entrepreneurship, Catherine. How many times have you seen? Kathryn Finney: I think we're hitting it all. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: is people have their breakthrough in their business when they get to a place internally where they see, they up level their sense of possibility, right? Their vision, that intention, that actual focus on what really matters. Right, like, you know, we see this in business so much nowadays. People are like, everybody wants to be an influencer. And so, you know, so if you're just chasing as many likes and as follows as possible, listen, I mean, maybe that's your business model, right? But also maybe you would be much better served if you were focusing your energy on things that were actually going to grow the foundation of your business in a much stronger and lasting way, right? Kathryn Finney: Yes. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, well everyone gets the marketing, right? Because that's the fun stuff, right? To be out in front and to do all the talking and to get all the attention. But it's really the undercover work, like the work that you don't see that makes your business a success. Because marketing will get people to you. It won't get them to stay, right? If your product, I mean, it may get people to try your product once, but if your product is horrible, they're not gonna come back. Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: It certainly won't. Yeah. Kathryn Finney: and they're not gonna stay. And I think too, that's true with dating as well, right? Like, because I think we're in this place where everything is so visual, right? We live in a visual world. And so, you know, I had a long conversation with someone about eyelashes. I was like, I think I wanna get my eyelashes done. And we had a whole conversation, but about, you know, how much people were spinning on eyelashes and nails and. Francesca Hogi: Mm-hmm. Francesca Hogi: Hahaha Are we gonna? Kathryn Finney: you know, I love a good wig. I'm not going to lie. And, and, I invest in companies that, that deal with hair care, a number of companies. And so, I get it, but, but it's very expensive and there's this whole like, almost a costume that people wear when they're dating now. It's, it's a certain look. and I've actually asked men, do you guys like those eyelashes? Like, I mean, cause I'm just curious. Francesca Hogi: Yeah Francesca Hogi: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: They don't like those eyelashes. They don't like them. No, they look like caterpillars on your face. They're like, why do you? Yeah. Kathryn Finney: They don't like, it's, I know, and I'm like, you know, and I love a good lash. I'm not gonna knock, I love a good lash, but you know, so it's this whole pageantry that we're in that's again fueled by the social media of like who we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to show up. And it goes back to sort of like, you know, this question about core values. And you talk about this in your book, but we talk about it a lot as well and build a damn thing about defining. your core values, like what do you stand for? You, Fran, I, Catherine, like what do I stand for? What are the things that are most important to me? And how do I use that to build my business? And you have a similar concept of like, what are the things that are important to me? How do I use that to sort of build this path to true love? Francesca Hogi: Yeah, yes, romantic values, yeah, are something that I talk about. And I guide the reader through in the heart set section of book, we are going to hit all the sections. Among other things, but that's one of the things. Kathryn Finney: Yes, I tell you, we'll get there. We'll get there, definitely. Francesca Hogi: Yeah, because I think, and this is again, I have to just always give such a shout out to all of my matchmaking and coaching clients for the last 12 years because this is how I have, I would not have discovered this on my own. I just have to say that, right? But just really seeing that, yes, we have our personal core values, but what we value in terms of what we are experiencing within our partnerships. that's something different, that's actually something separate. And so you need to have compatible core personal values with your partners because like, know, if you value integrity and they don't, that's gonna be, you know, that's gonna be a big conflict. But there's also such this thing as romantic values. You you mentioned before, like for some people, you know, building financial wealth and legacy together, that is a core relationship value for them. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: And if that's a core value for you, then it is, right? If intellectual stimulation is a core value for you, it is for me. It's just always been, right? If having deep physical sexual intimacy and exploration is a core value for you, like that's for you. So just understanding that the more that you're clear. on what it is that's most important to you, then it's so much easier to then not get distracted by the bells and the whistles. And I think what you said is so true about there being such a parallel in dating and kind of the costume you wear in dating and also kind of the costumes that people wear in business and building a business because everybody wants to look like as widely appealable as possible. And I think when it comes to dating, you need to look different. How else would the people who are right for you gonna recognize you? If you're just showing up like everybody else, if you're on an app and your goal is to get as many likes as possible versus actually show your personality. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: your authentic self so the people who are for you can actually recognize you. That's a much more effective strategy. And it's the same thing in business. If you're like, I'm starting this restaurant and I'm going to market to everybody. I'm the next McDonald's. And it's like, well, you First of all, not everybody eats at McDonald's anyway. There's no place that everybody eats, right? So how can you actually be smarter? Where are you starting? What are your core values? Who are you here to serve? And it's the same thing in dating. Like, who am I actually here to connect with, right? What are those values and how do I bring those to the front? I mean, one thing that I always tell people, I'm like, there should be people, especially if you're on a dating app and somebody's looking at your profile, there should be people who look at you and go, nope, not for me. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, that's right. Francesca Hogi: Because who you are should be so clear, it shouldn't be so generic that it's like, oh, I don't know, it's kind of like for everybody. No, it should be so clear and so true to you that the people who are for you will see that and the people who aren't will also see that. Yes, yeah. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: those who are for you are for you and make yes, and being very clear on that. Yeah, I mean, think it's, it's just, you know, it's hard out there. I don't know if it's the pandemic or the result of the pandemic or where we always headed in this path, but you know, the ability to communicate with each other in person, sort of like our humanity is being kind of pushed out a bit, right? Francesca Hogi: I know. Francesca Hogi: It is. Yeah, yeah. Kathryn Finney: and through the apps and through other things too. I mean, I think this is indicative of just where we're at in the world and it impacts business, it impacts our love life. And so one of the last things I found really interesting about the book, and I find a lot about the book interesting, everyone make sure you get a copy, is this idea of inner guidance systems. Francesca Hogi: Yeah Francesca Hogi: Mm-hmm. Kathryn Finney: and on the physical and the emotional level. Can you share a little bit about how these guidance systems impact how we make decisions in our lives? Francesca Hogi: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, OK, so I'll back up for a moment just to say that one of the core things that I'm attempting to convey to the reader of the book is the importance of the relationship with yourself. Right. The relationship that you have with yourself, how you talk to yourself, right, how kind you are, the narratives where. Yes. What is the narrative? Kathryn Finney: the narratives we tell ourselves. We have a very good friend who says that, the narratives, what is the narrative you're telling yourself? Shout out Denise. Yeah. Francesca Hogi: It matters, right? Because if you're telling yourself, my God, I always mess things up, I'm always gonna be alone, no one's ever gonna love me, I'm never gonna be successful, I'm never gonna be able to build this business, I'm never gonna be able to figure this out, this will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And even if you manage to muddle through, do you know how much harder you have made your path? You've made it so much harder. I mean, that's another concept I talk about in the book is like dating the easier way, not the easy, but the easier way versus the harder way, because most people are dating in the hardest way possible. Trying to control everything, right? Not having any sense of... Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: And what way is that, just real quick, like what way is that? Francesca Hogi: You know having very very low love confidence. So the ability like belief that they can actually find love keep love handle love You know really just thinking that they can ignore their hearts and just follow their minds and just you know Be as all these things that we're talking about be as appealing as possible be as superficial as possible all of these things Following rules rather than following your heart and knowing yourself those things make it so much harder So much harder, right? If you're playing a bunch of games, then you're only going to be compatible with other people who play a bunch of games. And then that's going to be the relationship, right? So. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Yeah. Francesca Hogi: play stupid games, get stupid prizes, win stupid prizes, and by the, stupid prize, it's going to be this dysfunctional relationship where you're just trying to outgame each other all the time. And so you have to, but you have to feel worthy enough that you deserve to have more than that to even allow yourself to have it. So this is going back to like, okay, and that's why I have a whole chapter in the book about self-love and how to actually put this into practice, how to be more compassionate Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah. Francesca Hogi: towards yourself, how to start taking those high self-worth actions even when you don't 100 % feel it, right? How to be your own cheerleader and validate yourself and give yourself credit for what you've attempted for the fact that you're showing up, that you're trying, regardless of the outcome, understanding what self-care actually looks like for you. learning to cultivate gratitude for the one of a kind miracle that you are. So once you start to, once you set that intention and we don't have to be perfect, thank goodness, but it's really good news. We don't have to be perfect here. But if you set that intention of like, yeah, I do want to create a more loving relationship with myself. It clears so much of the static and so much of the noise that blocks us from our inner wisdom. So this is the answer I was going to get there, right? Answering your question of that inner guy. Kathryn Finney: goodness. Kathryn Finney: Yeah Francesca Hogi: system, when we have a noisy, noisy voice that doesn't even belong to us but it's just been on repeat in our heads, you know, since childhood telling us that we're, you know, fill in the blank, that is blocking so much of our sense of possibility, our creative potential, our ability to receive, our ability to be vulnerable. our ability to magnetize people to us. I mean, this is where we really, the ways in which we really block love really starts on the inside, right? And that's one thing I'm saying in the book throughout is like, love is an inside job. So once you start to get that relationship with yourself in a more loving place, then you can start to hear those whispers. You can start to hear those nudges. You can start to, I mean, here's an example, you know, talked about my own relationship. when I met my partner, I met him at a conference, not Ted, but it was Ted adjacent. And I remember very clearly in our very first conversation, I could feel his energy coming towards me. He was very, very strong energy. And I was like, wow. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: this guy is like really giving me like a lot of attention, a lot of energy. And I had a moment where I was like, am I going to let this in? And I'm like, yeah, you know what? I'm going to let it in. It feels good. You know, we're going to have a beautiful friendship. went to bed that night thinking we are going to have a beautiful lifelong friendship. And the only reason I was able to have that Kathryn Finney: Yeah, yeah. Francesca Hogi: insight is because I have done so much work on my relationship with myself that I can trust myself. Like I'm like, if I'm feeling this, this is real because I don't gaslight myself into thinking that, you know, I don't know, any guy that gives me attention is somebody that is worth my time, for instance. Kathryn Finney: See, like, not every man wants you. It's okay. Francesca Hogi: Not every man wants you and not every man who wants you do you want. So, you know, right? So can we, you know, so even just, I mean, this is part of the fantasy thing too. It's like, if we stop taking men's attraction, I know this is a very heteronormative conversation and I did write this book for everyone. I don't want anybody to feel excluded, but I'll just say, cause we are just two straight girls, like boys. Kathryn Finney: Well, exactly. Yes, there's that. There's that. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: It is what it is. Francesca Hogi: It is what it is. But if we can, as women who date men, stop taking men's interest in us as a compliment. because that's how we've been raised as girls. my God, he likes you. It's a compliment. Even if he's not treating you well, even if he's pulling your hair, right? Even if he's lying to you or disrespecting you, he likes you. that's so we're supposed to, we've been conditioned as women to be like, my God, he likes me. So that's the most important thing. I've had so many clients who they're so over the moon because a guy likes them. And then I'll ask them, well, what do you like about him? And they literally can't tell me. Kathryn Finney: Yeah, the male gaze. Francesca Hogi: right? Because they're so conditioned to just think I'm supposed to be chosen. Whereas when you start to switch and this is a relationship with yourself and being like, wait, I'm actually like, I'm dope. Why wouldn't somebody like me? Like it's not to take it for granted or to be arrogant about it, but it's just not to say that you liking me means everything. How do I feel about you? What happens when we come together? When two people come together, are co-creating something that has never existed before. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: That relationship is completely unique and specific to the two of you. Right? So you are both half of the equation. Both of your opinions matter. So somebody likes you, great. That opens you up to the possibility of exploring something with them, amazing. But if you know yourself, then you know the difference between, this might be a great person. It's awesome. It was fun to get to know them. I appreciate that they like me, but I also feel in my heart, this is not the dynamic that I actually want to experience in my true love partnership. So this isn't the person. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Kathryn Finney: Yeah. Francesca Hogi: If we could take things less personally, God, this would be easier. Kathryn Finney: It would be so easy. That's like the perfect closing of our episode. Thank you so much, Fran. Make sure you all get a copy of Fran's book, How to Find True Love. It's available everywhere at your local bookstores. And those of you who still using Amazon, you can order it on Amazon too. Francesca Hogi: If you do get it on Amazon, at least please leave a review. Five stars. Kathryn Finney: leave a review. We'll also have links to the book and the show notes as well so that you all don't have to do the Googles. And also you can follow her on social media. She has great advice. She has a website francescahogie.com where you can also take quizzes and learn more about her and also learn more about her coaching services as well. And so if you like this episode, please share it. Please also like leave a comment leave a review on Apple and Spotify Feel free to share it Subscribe to the podcast and also subscribe to our YouTube channel. And so on that note I'm gonna leave with with us with something from Francesca Fran, which is you know, why wouldn't someone like me? So go through your day thinking why wouldn't someone like I'm the most amazing person in this world Francesca Hogi: Yeah Kathryn Finney: Of course he will like me, of course. Francesca Hogi: Listen, you are the most amazing person. I'll say this really quick, because this really helped me in my own self-love journey as well, which is we all intuitively understand that there literally has never been anyone just like you on this planet, and there never will be. And if you really take a moment to absorb that, It's like, wait a second. I'm literally a one of a kind miracle. So, so we forget that. Kathryn Finney: We are miracles. I think we forget that, that we are miracles. Each and every one of us, we are miracles. All the things that had to happen for us to exist, right? All the things that had to happen for millions of years for us to exist at this moment. What a miracle we are, each and every one of us. And we cannot forget that, that we're all miracles. Wow. Thank you so much, Fran. Make sure to follow the, yeah. Francesca Hogi: miracles yes yes Francesca Hogi: Yes. What a miracle. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So you're a miracle. Thank you for being my friend. Kathryn Finney: Make sure to follow the build a damn thing podcast. Of course, you can always pick up the book, build a damn thing. It's also available wherever books are sold. till next time, keep building, keep thriving. Kathryn Finney: I'm gonna give it